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You're fighting the good fight. Smil is one of my favorite authors. His writing writing makes me think of Mr. Spock. There are options, polymer concrete, car

You're fighting the good fight. Smil is one of my favorite authors. His writing writing makes me think of Mr. Spock. There are options, polymer concrete, carbon fiber as opposed to steel. But yeah, overall there are gonna be some changes one way or another. One hopeful side-effect of the waste in our systems is that it provides easy wins for reducing energy usage without sacrificing quality of life. For example, I've heard estimates of as high as 50% for waste in the USA's food systems.

dredmorbius 4y ago
Thanks. And yes, materials science seems to be an area of potential gains. I've done some poking around, and it seems especially that various fibre-composite materials might afford useful characteristics. Much of what we already use is to a large extent based on this --- wood is a lignan-resin composite, reinforced concrete a steel-cement composite. Whether this means ceramics, organic, or some other mix of methods and materials I'm not sure. Fabrics are also pretty fascinating when you think about them. For ammonia, enzymatic production, if that could be synthesized at scale ... at which point, surface-area exposure and capture becomes the question. That might get us 2, 3, or even 4 of Smil's materials set right there. And yes, Smil is pretty coldly logical. Though the dry humour does show every so often.
- carapace 4y ago
  I agree that composite materials seem to have a lot of potential. Have you heard of "timbrel" vaulting? ( https://makezine.com/2009/06/30/lost-knowledge-timbrel-vaulting/ https://makezine.com/2009/06/30/lost-knowledge-timbrel-vault... seems like a good resource.)
  - dredmorbius 4y ago
    Interesting, though in the context of major material usage (e.g., concrete, particularly in infrastructure), of limited applicability. Some merits in construction. The more so if the location isn't earthquake-prone. But not so much for, say, rail systems, bridges, or long-distance pipelines and the like.
    - carapace 4y ago
      I see it as a way of reusing waste before it goes to the landfill. The heterogeneity of a pile of trash is a function of scale. Imagine robots that cut trash into "confetti" which is then sorted by material (and grain when it makes sense) and glued into new composites. We have the tech for this now. Computer vision and pick-&-place robots are good-to-go. I feel like we have all the solutions we need already, we just have to realize it and "get 'er done". That's part of why I like what you do so much. Cheers!
      - dredmorbius 4y ago
        There's a pretty well-developed waste-stream sorting technical capability now, though the best time to disaggregate is prior to disposal (e.g., different recycling bins), or barring that, on collection (where much does happen). In practice, the economics of recycled material resale are poor (IMO a market dysfunction), and the effort is often not cost-effective. That's highly unfortunate. Tip scavenging is also a well-established informal labour niche in low-wage societies. Again, with high negative externalities and societal costs. Again, unfortunate.
        carapace 4y ago
        > There's a pretty well-developed waste-stream sorting technical capability now, though the best time to disaggregate is prior to disposal (e.g., different recycling bins), or barring that, on collection (where much does happen). True, and sorting capability is getting better every day. I was looking into building my own sorting robots a few years ago and found that they're already pretty much off-the-shelf now, eh? I do like the idea of people paying me to give me raw materials. > In practice, the economics of recycled material resale are poor (IMO a market dysfunction), and the effort is often not cost-effective. That's highly unfortunate. I agree. Maybe carbon costs will make recycled materials more acceptable. > Tip scavenging is also a well-established informal labour niche in low-wage societies. Again, with high negative externalities and societal costs. Again, unfortunate. I've been there. I was homeless for a few years. It's insane what people throw away. And then they lock the dumpsters so you can't salvage it. Madness. But I think you're talking more about the folks who basically live in the waste streams, like the families living in the Mexico City dump, or parts of rural China until they stopped importing waste?

dredmorbius 4y ago

Thanks. And yes, materials science seems to be an area of potential gains. I've done some poking around, and it seems especially that various fibre-composite materials might afford useful characteristics. Much of what we already use is to a large extent based on this --- wood is a lignan-resin composite, reinforced concrete a steel-cement composite. Whether this means ceramics, organic, or some other mix of methods and materials I'm not sure. Fabrics are also pretty fascinating when you think about them. For ammonia, enzymatic production, if that could be synthesized at scale ... at which point, surface-area exposure and capture becomes the question. That might get us 2, 3, or even 4 of Smil's materials set right there. And yes, Smil is pretty coldly logical. Though the dry humour does show every so often.

carapace 4y ago
I agree that composite materials seem to have a lot of potential. Have you heard of "timbrel" vaulting? ( https://makezine.com/2009/06/30/lost-knowledge-timbrel-vaulting/ https://makezine.com/2009/06/30/lost-knowledge-timbrel-vault... seems like a good resource.)
- dredmorbius 4y ago
  Interesting, though in the context of major material usage (e.g., concrete, particularly in infrastructure), of limited applicability. Some merits in construction. The more so if the location isn't earthquake-prone. But not so much for, say, rail systems, bridges, or long-distance pipelines and the like.
  - carapace 4y ago
    I see it as a way of reusing waste before it goes to the landfill. The heterogeneity of a pile of trash is a function of scale. Imagine robots that cut trash into "confetti" which is then sorted by material (and grain when it makes sense) and glued into new composites. We have the tech for this now. Computer vision and pick-&-place robots are good-to-go. I feel like we have all the solutions we need already, we just have to realize it and "get 'er done". That's part of why I like what you do so much. Cheers!
    - dredmorbius 4y ago
      There's a pretty well-developed waste-stream sorting technical capability now, though the best time to disaggregate is prior to disposal (e.g., different recycling bins), or barring that, on collection (where much does happen). In practice, the economics of recycled material resale are poor (IMO a market dysfunction), and the effort is often not cost-effective. That's highly unfortunate. Tip scavenging is also a well-established informal labour niche in low-wage societies. Again, with high negative externalities and societal costs. Again, unfortunate.
      - carapace 4y ago
        > There's a pretty well-developed waste-stream sorting technical capability now, though the best time to disaggregate is prior to disposal (e.g., different recycling bins), or barring that, on collection (where much does happen). True, and sorting capability is getting better every day. I was looking into building my own sorting robots a few years ago and found that they're already pretty much off-the-shelf now, eh? I do like the idea of people paying me to give me raw materials. > In practice, the economics of recycled material resale are poor (IMO a market dysfunction), and the effort is often not cost-effective. That's highly unfortunate. I agree. Maybe carbon costs will make recycled materials more acceptable. > Tip scavenging is also a well-established informal labour niche in low-wage societies. Again, with high negative externalities and societal costs. Again, unfortunate. I've been there. I was homeless for a few years. It's insane what people throw away. And then they lock the dumpsters so you can't salvage it. Madness. But I think you're talking more about the folks who basically live in the waste streams, like the families living in the Mexico City dump, or parts of rural China until they stopped importing waste?