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> 2) you can find out what methods you need to implement just by running the code that uses the implementation and see what fails. For large codebases this is

> 2) you can find out what methods you need to implement just by running the code that uses the implementation and see what fails. For large codebases this is SO painful to do. I just don't understand how anyone gets anything done when this is how they have to develop code.

StefanKarpinski 4y ago
That's why interfaces are useful—they save you from that. But they don't actually solve the problem of checking that an abstraction has been implemented correctly, just that you've implemented the entire API surface area, possibly incorrectly. Note, however, that if you have a way of automatically testing the behavioral correctness of an implementation, then those tests presumably cover the entire API, so automatic testing would subsume the benefit that static interface checking provides—just run the automatic tests and it tells you what you haven't implemented as well as what you may have implemented incorrectly.
- sirwhinesalot 4y ago
  Indeed, static types don't save you from this issue, at least structural ones don't, exactly the same issue would occur as in Julia (see: C++ templates). Static structural types have the same problem as Julia here, you gain a lot of compositional power at the expense of potential correctness issues. However, nominal types do "solve" the problem somewhat, as there's a clear statement of intent when you do "X implements Y" that the compiler enforces. If that promise is missing, the compiler will not let you use an X where a Y is expected. And if you do say X implements Y, then you probably tested that you did it correctly. But this would also fail at the OffsetArray problem. The only way I can see of protecting against it (statically or dynamically) is to have an "offset-index" type, different from an integer, that you need to have to index an OffsetArray. That makes a[x] not be compatible between regular Arrays and OffsetArrays. I don't think anyone wants that mess though. So if your language has OffsetArrays, and they're supposed to be compatible with Arrays, and you can index both the same way, no amount of static types will help (save for dependent/refinement types but those are their own mess). EDIT: I seem to have replied to the wrong comment, but the right person, so hey, no issue in the end :)
- blindseer 4y ago
  I think I agree with your claim that writing tests would be a super set in terms of covering the use cases of interfaces. But 1) Testing is such a PAIN in Julia. You HAVE to run all the tests every time. You HAVE to write tests in a separate folder. Multiple dispatch and composibility prevent having confidence that your tests cover all the cases. 2) In a lot of cases, interfaces improve readability of the code. Being able to just look at code in a large code base and know which interfaces are implemented + need to be implemented is such an advantage 3) Static analysis tooling can provide linting. This doesn't even have to be implemented by the core team at the moment. The lack of interface limits any kind of tooling to be developed. All in all, when I write Julia code, I know I have to write EXTENSIVE tests. Even more tests than I have to write with Python (with mypy). Almost an order of magnitude more tests than I have to write with Rust. Sometimes it feels like I spend more time writing / running tests than adding features to our packages. And that is honestly just not fun for me, let alone for other scientists and researchers on my team.

StefanKarpinski 4y ago

That's why interfaces are useful—they save you from that. But they don't actually solve the problem of checking that an abstraction has been implemented correctly, just that you've implemented the entire API surface area, possibly incorrectly. Note, however, that if you have a way of automatically testing the behavioral correctness of an implementation, then those tests presumably cover the entire API, so automatic testing would subsume the benefit that static interface checking provides—just run the automatic tests and it tells you what you haven't implemented as well as what you may have implemented incorrectly.

sirwhinesalot 4y ago
Indeed, static types don't save you from this issue, at least structural ones don't, exactly the same issue would occur as in Julia (see: C++ templates). Static structural types have the same problem as Julia here, you gain a lot of compositional power at the expense of potential correctness issues. However, nominal types do "solve" the problem somewhat, as there's a clear statement of intent when you do "X implements Y" that the compiler enforces. If that promise is missing, the compiler will not let you use an X where a Y is expected. And if you do say X implements Y, then you probably tested that you did it correctly. But this would also fail at the OffsetArray problem. The only way I can see of protecting against it (statically or dynamically) is to have an "offset-index" type, different from an integer, that you need to have to index an OffsetArray. That makes a[x] not be compatible between regular Arrays and OffsetArrays. I don't think anyone wants that mess though. So if your language has OffsetArrays, and they're supposed to be compatible with Arrays, and you can index both the same way, no amount of static types will help (save for dependent/refinement types but those are their own mess). EDIT: I seem to have replied to the wrong comment, but the right person, so hey, no issue in the end :)
blindseer 4y ago
I think I agree with your claim that writing tests would be a super set in terms of covering the use cases of interfaces. But 1) Testing is such a PAIN in Julia. You HAVE to run all the tests every time. You HAVE to write tests in a separate folder. Multiple dispatch and composibility prevent having confidence that your tests cover all the cases. 2) In a lot of cases, interfaces improve readability of the code. Being able to just look at code in a large code base and know which interfaces are implemented + need to be implemented is such an advantage 3) Static analysis tooling can provide linting. This doesn't even have to be implemented by the core team at the moment. The lack of interface limits any kind of tooling to be developed. All in all, when I write Julia code, I know I have to write EXTENSIVE tests. Even more tests than I have to write with Python (with mypy). Almost an order of magnitude more tests than I have to write with Rust. Sometimes it feels like I spend more time writing / running tests than adding features to our packages. And that is honestly just not fun for me, let alone for other scientists and researchers on my team.