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Looks scary for sure. But the driver had the time to say "woa woa woa" before even starting to intervene, he knew the system was exhibiting erratic behavior. Ha

Looks scary for sure. But the driver had the time to say "woa woa woa" before even starting to intervene, he knew the system was exhibiting erratic behavior. Had he acted appropriately this would never have been an issue. The system makes mistakes, plenty of mistakes. Absolutely nobody is claiming that it is safe yet. It's supposed to go with a human supervisor ready to intervene at all times. And so far it has worked, as there hasn't been a single confirmed accident aside a Youtuber driving into a bollard resulting in some paint damage (again, letting the system go longer than necessary in order to see what would happen), and this despite 60k+, approaching 100k drivers using it. It sure looks scary, but I expect HN to be smarter than that and actually look at the statistics.

remus 4y ago
> Looks scary for sure. But the driver had the time to say "woa woa woa" before even starting to intervene, he knew the system was exhibiting erratic behavior. Had he acted appropriately this would never have been an issue. From the video, there appears to be about 3-4 secs between it behaving fairly normally and it turning into oncoming traffic. To me that says the driver supervising the car has to be extremely attentive which is a pretty spicy place to be. I think for me the underlying point is that a system where the backup is "random human ready to take over at any point with <5secs notice" just doesn't seem very safe or ready for general consumption.
Strilanc 4y ago
> Absolutely nobody is claiming that it is safe yet. If you just go looking for a few minutes you can find all kinds of claims that Tesla's FSD system is safe or will be safe. It would be very easy to end up with the impression that it would never veer into oncoming traffic. For example: > "I would be shocked if we do not achieve Full Self-Driving safer than a human this year. I would be shocked," Musk told analysts. [1] I know that this is actually a statistical claim, not a claim that it will do uniformly better in all situations (like not veering into oncoming traffic). Regardless, you can find lots of "it's safer than people" and a lot of victim blaming when it's suddenly not safe. It was like ten years ago that Google's self driving effort concluded it wasn't safe to trust the driver to supervise the system. Saying it's safe if the driver catches mistakes is just shifting the blame. You can't say you have full self driving and say mistakes don't count if the driver's not paying attention! [1]: https://www.drive.com.au/news/tesla-full-self-driving-safer-than-a-human-elon-musk-claims/ https://www.drive.com.au/news/tesla-full-self-driving-safer-...
- martindbp 4y ago
  I think the claims that "it's" safe is actually the claim that the combination of FSD and human driver is safe. So far that seems to be true, although there is the concern as the system becomes better and the human complacent, we'll see more accidents due to bored/complacent drivers. Some people (possibly biased of course) report that the combination feels more safe, because the they can use more of their cognitive capacity assessing threats rather than for the act of driving. Many people also report less mental fatigue driving long stretches with both autopilot and FSD, fatigue also being a big contributor for accidents. I think in the hands of a responsible driver it may actually be more safe. In the hands of an irresponsible driver though, who'd use it to space out or browse on their phone, it's clearly extremely unsafe. So far, the Safety Score filter may have ruled out most of the irresponsible drivers, but I think it'll be a problem soon. Also as the system becomes better, even responsible drivers may stop paying attention.

remus 4y ago

> Looks scary for sure. But the driver had the time to say "woa woa woa" before even starting to intervene, he knew the system was exhibiting erratic behavior. Had he acted appropriately this would never have been an issue. From the video, there appears to be about 3-4 secs between it behaving fairly normally and it turning into oncoming traffic. To me that says the driver supervising the car has to be extremely attentive which is a pretty spicy place to be. I think for me the underlying point is that a system where the backup is "random human ready to take over at any point with <5secs notice" just doesn't seem very safe or ready for general consumption.

Strilanc 4y ago

> Absolutely nobody is claiming that it is safe yet. If you just go looking for a few minutes you can find all kinds of claims that Tesla's FSD system is safe or will be safe. It would be very easy to end up with the impression that it would never veer into oncoming traffic. For example: > "I would be shocked if we do not achieve Full Self-Driving safer than a human this year. I would be shocked," Musk told analysts. [1] I know that this is actually a statistical claim, not a claim that it will do uniformly better in all situations (like not veering into oncoming traffic). Regardless, you can find lots of "it's safer than people" and a lot of victim blaming when it's suddenly not safe. It was like ten years ago that Google's self driving effort concluded it wasn't safe to trust the driver to supervise the system. Saying it's safe if the driver catches mistakes is just shifting the blame. You can't say you have full self driving and say mistakes don't count if the driver's not paying attention! [1]: https://www.drive.com.au/news/tesla-full-self-driving-safer-than-a-human-elon-musk-claims/ https://www.drive.com.au/news/tesla-full-self-driving-safer-...

martindbp 4y ago
I think the claims that "it's" safe is actually the claim that the combination of FSD and human driver is safe. So far that seems to be true, although there is the concern as the system becomes better and the human complacent, we'll see more accidents due to bored/complacent drivers. Some people (possibly biased of course) report that the combination feels more safe, because the they can use more of their cognitive capacity assessing threats rather than for the act of driving. Many people also report less mental fatigue driving long stretches with both autopilot and FSD, fatigue also being a big contributor for accidents. I think in the hands of a responsible driver it may actually be more safe. In the hands of an irresponsible driver though, who'd use it to space out or browse on their phone, it's clearly extremely unsafe. So far, the Safety Score filter may have ruled out most of the irresponsible drivers, but I think it'll be a problem soon. Also as the system becomes better, even responsible drivers may stop paying attention.