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Do they even have usable vaccines? Their Sinovac/Sinopharm vaccines were reasonably effective in preventing severe COVID in the non-elderly pre-omicron, but the

Do they even have usable vaccines? Their Sinovac/Sinopharm vaccines were reasonably effective in preventing severe COVID in the non-elderly pre-omicron, but they don't seem to be too effective against omicron. Most countries using the Chinese vaccines had the "benefit" of having a ton of natural immunity as well. China obviously does not have this. They might seriously have to consider importing Western vaccines as boosters, especially for their under-vaccinated elderly population.

lamontcg 4y ago
Data from Hong Kong shows that three shots of Sinovac is still 98% effective against severe outcomes with Omicron: https://fortune.com/2022/03/22/china-covid-vaccine-data-reopen-mrna-sinovac-biontech-efficacy-booster-third-dose-death/ https://fortune.com/2022/03/22/china-covid-vaccine-data-reop... And it doesn't make a lot of sense that the different vaccines would be substantially different against different variants or would wane quicker once the same level of vaccination was reached. Once you've got the T-cells and B-cells they're permanent and they aren't going to remember what kind of vaccine they came from. The differences in the vaccines should just be in overall effectiveness. Mostly they just need to get their elderly population vaccinated, doesn't matter much how. It is really weird to watch China treat them with kid gloves.
- twic 4y ago
  > And it doesn't make a lot of sense that the different vaccines would be substantially different against different variants or would wane quicker once the same level of vaccination was reached. Once you've got the T-cells and B-cells they're permanent and they aren't going to remember what kind of vaccine they came from. The differences in the vaccines should just be in overall effectiveness. Not quite. Subunit (Novavax) or inactivated virus vaccines (like the Chinese ones) do not cause synthesis of viral proteins, so they do not stimulate killer T cell immunity [1]. That's a whole arm of the immune system which is not getting primed. [1] Except to a limited extent via cross-presentation, i know
  - lamontcg 4y ago
    Except there's a lot of studies showing CD8+ T-cell generation from inactivated coronavirus vaccines: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2021.766278/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2021.7662... https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/resp.14191 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/resp.14191 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1198743X21006054 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1198743X2... The dendritic cells which take up the inactivated virus vaccine will chop up the structural and spike proteins and display that on host MHC for T-cells and B-cells in germinal centers. The T-cells don't know if the protein fragments come from foreign particles or cell synthesis. The happens in both mRNA vaccines and inactivated virus vaccines and both require cross-presentation by the dendritic cells.
zardinality 4y ago
Sinovac is effective to omicron but only with the third booster. In contrast, Pfizer is almost as effective as sinovac with merely two shots in preventing the COVID. So the problem there first is not why they don't import Pfizer, it is why they do not even have sinovac booster. The answer here is simple: the government do not enforce anybody to get vaccinated. No one. If you missed a corona test at 7am you might be grounded for the rest of week, but if you don't get any vaccine nobody cares. I got two shots of Pfizer not recorded in China, and no one comes to my place like when they want to test you. Plus there are sporadic side symptoms getting a shot, like arm sore and allergy, some even last to now. Plus plus, for most of people they don't see virus around. So the incentive is zero. You probably don't have to right to travel freely, but you have the right to not get an injection in China. FWIW.
- zardinality 4y ago
  Ok I now recall some counterpoints I only heard from my family. In the local community, community workers do visit the seniors to sell off vaccines. So that indeed prove the government did not forget this part. But they certainly not enforce it. To think in other ways, if they should enforced it, maybe it will be even an earlier disaster.
- Ancapistani 4y ago
  > You probably don't have to right to travel freely, but you have the right to not get an injection in China. FWIW. It sounds like you're either Chinese, or have close ties there. For context, I live in the Southern US. I've not been vaccinated due to a medical concern that's shared with my doctor. My normal doctor is aggressively anti-COVID-vaccine, so I got a second opinion just in case, and concluded that while it probably wouldn't hurt me significantly... there is a chance of side effects that is within an order of magnitude of the chance that I will eventually develop a very severe case of COVID. I've already had COVID once - almost certainly the Delta variant - so the chances of my developing a severe case are very low anyhow. I'm able to travel freely, and until very recently no one around me has any idea whether or not I've been vaccinated. The only change to that is that I'm taking a trip across the country for work in the next couple of months, and I had to get a doctor's note for my employer to release them of liability should I catch COVID and die as a result of that trip. In short, I don't see this as a choice between being able to travel freely or being forced to take the vaccine. It's more nuanced than that.

lamontcg 4y ago

Data from Hong Kong shows that three shots of Sinovac is still 98% effective against severe outcomes with Omicron: https://fortune.com/2022/03/22/china-covid-vaccine-data-reopen-mrna-sinovac-biontech-efficacy-booster-third-dose-death/ https://fortune.com/2022/03/22/china-covid-vaccine-data-reop... And it doesn't make a lot of sense that the different vaccines would be substantially different against different variants or would wane quicker once the same level of vaccination was reached. Once you've got the T-cells and B-cells they're permanent and they aren't going to remember what kind of vaccine they came from. The differences in the vaccines should just be in overall effectiveness. Mostly they just need to get their elderly population vaccinated, doesn't matter much how. It is really weird to watch China treat them with kid gloves.

twic 4y ago
> And it doesn't make a lot of sense that the different vaccines would be substantially different against different variants or would wane quicker once the same level of vaccination was reached. Once you've got the T-cells and B-cells they're permanent and they aren't going to remember what kind of vaccine they came from. The differences in the vaccines should just be in overall effectiveness. Not quite. Subunit (Novavax) or inactivated virus vaccines (like the Chinese ones) do not cause synthesis of viral proteins, so they do not stimulate killer T cell immunity [1]. That's a whole arm of the immune system which is not getting primed. [1] Except to a limited extent via cross-presentation, i know
- lamontcg 4y ago
  Except there's a lot of studies showing CD8+ T-cell generation from inactivated coronavirus vaccines: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2021.766278/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2021.7662... https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/resp.14191 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/resp.14191 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1198743X21006054 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1198743X2... The dendritic cells which take up the inactivated virus vaccine will chop up the structural and spike proteins and display that on host MHC for T-cells and B-cells in germinal centers. The T-cells don't know if the protein fragments come from foreign particles or cell synthesis. The happens in both mRNA vaccines and inactivated virus vaccines and both require cross-presentation by the dendritic cells.

zardinality 4y ago

Sinovac is effective to omicron but only with the third booster. In contrast, Pfizer is almost as effective as sinovac with merely two shots in preventing the COVID. So the problem there first is not why they don't import Pfizer, it is why they do not even have sinovac booster. The answer here is simple: the government do not enforce anybody to get vaccinated. No one. If you missed a corona test at 7am you might be grounded for the rest of week, but if you don't get any vaccine nobody cares. I got two shots of Pfizer not recorded in China, and no one comes to my place like when they want to test you. Plus there are sporadic side symptoms getting a shot, like arm sore and allergy, some even last to now. Plus plus, for most of people they don't see virus around. So the incentive is zero. You probably don't have to right to travel freely, but you have the right to not get an injection in China. FWIW.

zardinality 4y ago
Ok I now recall some counterpoints I only heard from my family. In the local community, community workers do visit the seniors to sell off vaccines. So that indeed prove the government did not forget this part. But they certainly not enforce it. To think in other ways, if they should enforced it, maybe it will be even an earlier disaster.
Ancapistani 4y ago
> You probably don't have to right to travel freely, but you have the right to not get an injection in China. FWIW. It sounds like you're either Chinese, or have close ties there. For context, I live in the Southern US. I've not been vaccinated due to a medical concern that's shared with my doctor. My normal doctor is aggressively anti-COVID-vaccine, so I got a second opinion just in case, and concluded that while it probably wouldn't hurt me significantly... there is a chance of side effects that is within an order of magnitude of the chance that I will eventually develop a very severe case of COVID. I've already had COVID once - almost certainly the Delta variant - so the chances of my developing a severe case are very low anyhow. I'm able to travel freely, and until very recently no one around me has any idea whether or not I've been vaccinated. The only change to that is that I'm taking a trip across the country for work in the next couple of months, and I had to get a doctor's note for my employer to release them of liability should I catch COVID and die as a result of that trip. In short, I don't see this as a choice between being able to travel freely or being forced to take the vaccine. It's more nuanced than that.