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And giving up their land and independence is the last thing Ukrainians want, so it sounds like Ukraine and NATO are on the same page in terms of not appeasing a

And giving up their land and independence is the last thing Ukrainians want, so it sounds like Ukraine and NATO are on the same page in terms of not appeasing a senile tyrant invading a sovereign nation.

pydry 4y ago
It's what 90% of crimeans wanted according to gallup polling. The way I see it the west either fights for empire or we fight for democracy. If we fight for democracy then we respect votes we dont like whose results are independently verified by pollsters we trust. Particularly votes that breach the 90%+ threshold. That would match our principles. In Ukraine neither Kyiv, the west nor Russia fights for democracy though. Everybody fights for power, territory and, ultimately, empire.
- drakonka 4y ago
  Do you believe a Gallup poll should dictate a country's borders or serve as justification for a nation being invaded by its neighbor?
  - pydry 4y ago
    No, but I believe referenda should. Ukraine gained its independence that way after all. The gallup polls simply confirmed that the referendum that was run by Russian troops was more or less free and fair. I believe this is a good litmus test of peoples belief in democracy as a matter of principle. Belief in democracy means commitment to voting especially when you dont like the result. It appears a lot of people do not like democracy.
    - drakonka 4y ago
      A referendum is a far cry from your original suggestion to "officially cede Crimea", though. There can be no legitimate referendum while a territory is under invasion. Suggesting a sovereign nation cede territory to an oppressive dictator who decided to invade it is antithetical to democracy, as is suggesting that said tyrant should be allowed to dictate which defensive alliance it joins.
      - pydry 4y ago
        >A referendum is a far cry from your original suggestion to "officially cede Crimea", though The referendum already happened. My original suggestion was "respect the result" - what 90% or crimeans also want according to gallup - a western pollster. What you want is for their votes to be "corrected" to fall in line with strategic imperialist objectives. This is a position Putin would understand and respect. >There can be no legitimate referendum while a territory is under invasion. Actually I believe there can under three conditions: * The population want the referendum. * The referendum wouldnt have happened without invasion. * No vote coercion happened as a result of the invasion. All three conditions held for Crimea, as well as certain other places. These conditions held for Iraq also, for example. Once again: if you want to anull the results of a referendum because you dont like the result where there is no uncertainty about a free and fair result then you can only pretend to respect democracy.
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  "What 90% of Crimeans want" does not set the agenda for all of Ukraine.
  - pydry 4y ago
    If you dont think the future of crimea should be determined by what crimeans think then you cannot pretend to have any respect for democracy.
    - macintux 4y ago
      It’s possible to respect democracy without believing that the majority of any given population should automatically get whatever they want.
      - pydry 4y ago
        If the majority want to exterminate a minority, sure. Democracy doesnt mean that they should be allowed. If "whatever they want" means independence and self determination then yes, either you believe they should have it or you give democracy the middle finger. Theres no middle ground there. Some people think ukraine should be run from Moscow and fuck what anybody in ukraine thinks. Some people think crimea should be run from Kyiv and fuck what anybody in Crimea thinks. They both hate democracy.
        macintux 4y ago
        It’s entirely possible that, as Ukraine’s democracy matured, Crimea could have changed hands peacefully. It’s also possible that, as Ukraine’s democracy matured, Crimea would have no longer wanted to leave. Russia short-circuited that by force.
        pydry 4y ago
        It's not in the slightest bit possible. Ukraine has not offered a vote, it would not conduct a vote and Ukraines constitution prohibits such a vote. You cannot respect democracy and want crimea returned to Ukraine. The two positions are fundamentally incompatible.

pydry 4y ago

It's what 90% of crimeans wanted according to gallup polling. The way I see it the west either fights for empire or we fight for democracy. If we fight for democracy then we respect votes we dont like whose results are independently verified by pollsters we trust. Particularly votes that breach the 90%+ threshold. That would match our principles. In Ukraine neither Kyiv, the west nor Russia fights for democracy though. Everybody fights for power, territory and, ultimately, empire.

drakonka 4y ago
Do you believe a Gallup poll should dictate a country's borders or serve as justification for a nation being invaded by its neighbor?
- pydry 4y ago
  No, but I believe referenda should. Ukraine gained its independence that way after all. The gallup polls simply confirmed that the referendum that was run by Russian troops was more or less free and fair. I believe this is a good litmus test of peoples belief in democracy as a matter of principle. Belief in democracy means commitment to voting especially when you dont like the result. It appears a lot of people do not like democracy.
  - drakonka 4y ago
    A referendum is a far cry from your original suggestion to "officially cede Crimea", though. There can be no legitimate referendum while a territory is under invasion. Suggesting a sovereign nation cede territory to an oppressive dictator who decided to invade it is antithetical to democracy, as is suggesting that said tyrant should be allowed to dictate which defensive alliance it joins.
    - pydry 4y ago
      >A referendum is a far cry from your original suggestion to "officially cede Crimea", though The referendum already happened. My original suggestion was "respect the result" - what 90% or crimeans also want according to gallup - a western pollster. What you want is for their votes to be "corrected" to fall in line with strategic imperialist objectives. This is a position Putin would understand and respect. >There can be no legitimate referendum while a territory is under invasion. Actually I believe there can under three conditions: * The population want the referendum. * The referendum wouldnt have happened without invasion. * No vote coercion happened as a result of the invasion. All three conditions held for Crimea, as well as certain other places. These conditions held for Iraq also, for example. Once again: if you want to anull the results of a referendum because you dont like the result where there is no uncertainty about a free and fair result then you can only pretend to respect democracy.
AnimalMuppet 4y ago
"What 90% of Crimeans want" does not set the agenda for all of Ukraine.
- pydry 4y ago
  If you dont think the future of crimea should be determined by what crimeans think then you cannot pretend to have any respect for democracy.
  - macintux 4y ago
    It’s possible to respect democracy without believing that the majority of any given population should automatically get whatever they want.
    - pydry 4y ago
      If the majority want to exterminate a minority, sure. Democracy doesnt mean that they should be allowed. If "whatever they want" means independence and self determination then yes, either you believe they should have it or you give democracy the middle finger. Theres no middle ground there. Some people think ukraine should be run from Moscow and fuck what anybody in ukraine thinks. Some people think crimea should be run from Kyiv and fuck what anybody in Crimea thinks. They both hate democracy.
      - macintux 4y ago
        It’s entirely possible that, as Ukraine’s democracy matured, Crimea could have changed hands peacefully. It’s also possible that, as Ukraine’s democracy matured, Crimea would have no longer wanted to leave. Russia short-circuited that by force.
        pydry 4y ago
        It's not in the slightest bit possible. Ukraine has not offered a vote, it would not conduct a vote and Ukraines constitution prohibits such a vote. You cannot respect democracy and want crimea returned to Ukraine. The two positions are fundamentally incompatible.