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Russia demanded a neutral (not NATO-affiliated) Ukraine as one of their peace conditions.

by lazyjones 4y ago

temp8964 4y ago
By invading Ukraine. LOL.
- Consultant32452 4y ago
  - golergka 4y ago
    I'm not sure how is that relevant here? Because if you're trying to say that US is to blame for this war, here's the newsflash: causal relationships and moral responsibility are not the same thing. Even if you knowingly provoke a criminal to do a crime (for example, by leaving your home unlocked, or by going around a bad neighbourhood in very sexy clothing), it does not in any way absolve him of decision to do the crime.
    - Consultant32452 4y ago
      The world is not simple good guys vs bad guys. Often it's bad guys vs bad guys.
      - golergka 4y ago
        Painting everyone with the same shade of gray is a more simplistic view of the world, not less.
        Consultant32452 4y ago
        In the last 25 years, which country in the world has invaded the most countries and slaughtered the most people in those countries they invaded? NATO/US is a far greater risk to the world than Russia, even if you might think Putin the person is more evil than Biden the person.
        golergka 4y ago
        > invaded If we're talking about moral side of thins, then this word should be read as "unjustifiably invaded, violating international law" and US haven't actually done it once in the last 25 years. > NATO/US is a far greater risk to the world Only if you invade your neighbours that have defence treaties with US or partake in genocide. Not something that I, or anyone else, minds.
        Consultant32452 4y ago
        Did you know the US is partaking in a genocide in Yemen as we speak? And committing war crimes with cluster bombs to boot.
  - rmind 4y ago
    The very concept of a nuclear country being "pushed" (what does that even mean?) to wage a war against a country, which is more than 3x smaller in population and around 5x weaker economically, is simply delusional. Russia attempted to wage a 19th century style conquest: brutal and open territorial grab including the subjugation and repression of the local population.
    - mcv 4y ago
      Yeah, when you have that much more power (or at least believe to), it's more about opportunity. Russia had an opportunity to invade because Ukraine was not part of NATO yet, and probably had rebuilt their forces (they seem to be waging a war every 6-8 years). Any attempt to legitimize their attack by pointing to threats they imagine other countries pose to Russia, is easily countered by the very obvious and direct threat that Russia eagerly poses to other countries. Temporary neutrality is not going to fix this; in 8 years, they're going to try again. All neighbours of Russia would be wise to join a defensive alliance.
    - Consultant32452 4y ago
      The military funded think tank that prescribed all of our actions leading up to this point and accurately predicted Russia's responses disagrees with you. No one wants direct nuclear war, but they do want to skirt around the edges and expand their power. The US has been in multiple hot proxy wars with Russia, the biggest being the attempted overthrow of Syria. US leadership from both parties have publicly described Ukraine as a proxy war between the US and Russia. If you're still in the early days of the propaganda where Russia invaded Ukraine totally out of the blue with zero provocation from anyone and the US is just doing their best to protect the innocents, you're way behind.
      - rmind 4y ago
        Russia didn't invade Ukraine "out of the blue". Russia has been at war with Ukraine since 2014, when it occupied and annexed Crimea, and at the same time orchestrated and instigated covert War in Donbas. You ramble something incoherent about the RAND paper from 2019. Just to clarify this: yes, it is precisely where the defense research should have spent the money following the Russia's aggression.
tuukkah 4y ago
Such a demand is pretty clearly impossible to accept as a peace condition as it would just expose Ukraine to more Russian coercion in the future. Russia also demanded a categorical end to NATO expansion including in Sweden and Finland.
- drexlspivey 4y ago
  Says who? Reports on the peace deal were that Ukraine had agreed to this point. Also “We might get invaded/bombed in the future” is a strictly better outcome than “we are being bombed right now”
  - KptMarchewa 4y ago
    Depends on what perspectives you have. Before Germany took Sudetenland, Czechoslovakia had chance to defend. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czechoslovak_border_fortifications https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czechoslovak_border_fortificat...
  - tuukkah 4y ago
    So instead of affirming your sovereignity and your ties to the West, you would cut your ties? I think it has proven useful to have those ties when the invasion is on. If it doesn't come to an invasion, Russia kills you slowly with a strong embrace.
    - lazyjones 4y ago
      Being neutral means having ties with everyone, not just the West. Austria is a good example for this, we decided to be neutral and were between East Bloc and West during the cold war and all related tensions, yet never worried due to strict neutrality and good relations with both sides.
      - tuukkah 4y ago
        Finland and Sweden did the same, until now. Easy for Austria to keep it that way now that they are a member of EU and completely surrounded by NATO countries. And in Ukraine we see that this strategy does not work when your neighbor is murderous.
ddalex 4y ago
Who the fuck cares what Russia demands. Do you ask your neighbor to approve your friend list ? Russia thought it could force the issue, and has had its ass handed back to them .
- cortesoft 4y ago
  > Do you ask your neighbor to approve your friend list? Well, if my neighbor had nukes pointed at my house, I might at least care what they thought.
  - ddalex 4y ago
    And your friends have nukes pointed at the neighbors house - perhaps the neighbour wants to mind his words lest his house be turned in a glassed skate park.
    - matheusmoreira 4y ago
      So your friend is willing to risk planetary destruction over a friends list dispute with your neighbor? I'd think thrice before relying on them when such stakes are on the table.
      - ddalex 4y ago
        Well, the neighbour that doesn't like my friends broke into my house repeatedly, stole my last food a couple of times, kidnapped several household members, raped my wife and my kid; and now threatens to burn the whole city down if I don't give up my new friends that protect my house. So yes, lets' burn the city down, why should I live in hell and fear - it's better that no one lives, including the asshole neighbour.
        matheusmoreira 4y ago
        So what? All that is nothing compared to the literal destruction of this planet. Better to let them walk all over you than risk destroying the world everybody lives in. I seriously doubt there is a single person in america willing to accept even the possibility of being utterly annihilated by nuclear fire over some foreign european nation. War against Vietnam or Iraq is one thing, war against Russia is on a completely different category.

Russia demanded a neutral (not NATO-affiliated) Ukraine as one of their peace conditions.

temp8964 4y ago

By invading Ukraine. LOL.

Consultant32452 4y ago
- golergka 4y ago
  I'm not sure how is that relevant here? Because if you're trying to say that US is to blame for this war, here's the newsflash: causal relationships and moral responsibility are not the same thing. Even if you knowingly provoke a criminal to do a crime (for example, by leaving your home unlocked, or by going around a bad neighbourhood in very sexy clothing), it does not in any way absolve him of decision to do the crime.
  - Consultant32452 4y ago
    The world is not simple good guys vs bad guys. Often it's bad guys vs bad guys.
    - golergka 4y ago
      Painting everyone with the same shade of gray is a more simplistic view of the world, not less.
      - Consultant32452 4y ago
        In the last 25 years, which country in the world has invaded the most countries and slaughtered the most people in those countries they invaded? NATO/US is a far greater risk to the world than Russia, even if you might think Putin the person is more evil than Biden the person.
        golergka 4y ago
        > invaded If we're talking about moral side of thins, then this word should be read as "unjustifiably invaded, violating international law" and US haven't actually done it once in the last 25 years. > NATO/US is a far greater risk to the world Only if you invade your neighbours that have defence treaties with US or partake in genocide. Not something that I, or anyone else, minds.
        Consultant32452 4y ago
        Did you know the US is partaking in a genocide in Yemen as we speak? And committing war crimes with cluster bombs to boot.
- rmind 4y ago
  The very concept of a nuclear country being "pushed" (what does that even mean?) to wage a war against a country, which is more than 3x smaller in population and around 5x weaker economically, is simply delusional. Russia attempted to wage a 19th century style conquest: brutal and open territorial grab including the subjugation and repression of the local population.
  - mcv 4y ago
    Yeah, when you have that much more power (or at least believe to), it's more about opportunity. Russia had an opportunity to invade because Ukraine was not part of NATO yet, and probably had rebuilt their forces (they seem to be waging a war every 6-8 years). Any attempt to legitimize their attack by pointing to threats they imagine other countries pose to Russia, is easily countered by the very obvious and direct threat that Russia eagerly poses to other countries. Temporary neutrality is not going to fix this; in 8 years, they're going to try again. All neighbours of Russia would be wise to join a defensive alliance.
  - Consultant32452 4y ago
    The military funded think tank that prescribed all of our actions leading up to this point and accurately predicted Russia's responses disagrees with you. No one wants direct nuclear war, but they do want to skirt around the edges and expand their power. The US has been in multiple hot proxy wars with Russia, the biggest being the attempted overthrow of Syria. US leadership from both parties have publicly described Ukraine as a proxy war between the US and Russia. If you're still in the early days of the propaganda where Russia invaded Ukraine totally out of the blue with zero provocation from anyone and the US is just doing their best to protect the innocents, you're way behind.
    - rmind 4y ago
      Russia didn't invade Ukraine "out of the blue". Russia has been at war with Ukraine since 2014, when it occupied and annexed Crimea, and at the same time orchestrated and instigated covert War in Donbas. You ramble something incoherent about the RAND paper from 2019. Just to clarify this: yes, it is precisely where the defense research should have spent the money following the Russia's aggression.

tuukkah 4y ago

Such a demand is pretty clearly impossible to accept as a peace condition as it would just expose Ukraine to more Russian coercion in the future. Russia also demanded a categorical end to NATO expansion including in Sweden and Finland.

drexlspivey 4y ago
Says who? Reports on the peace deal were that Ukraine had agreed to this point. Also “We might get invaded/bombed in the future” is a strictly better outcome than “we are being bombed right now”
- KptMarchewa 4y ago
  Depends on what perspectives you have. Before Germany took Sudetenland, Czechoslovakia had chance to defend. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czechoslovak_border_fortifications https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czechoslovak_border_fortificat...
- tuukkah 4y ago
  So instead of affirming your sovereignity and your ties to the West, you would cut your ties? I think it has proven useful to have those ties when the invasion is on. If it doesn't come to an invasion, Russia kills you slowly with a strong embrace.
  - lazyjones 4y ago
    Being neutral means having ties with everyone, not just the West. Austria is a good example for this, we decided to be neutral and were between East Bloc and West during the cold war and all related tensions, yet never worried due to strict neutrality and good relations with both sides.
    - tuukkah 4y ago
      Finland and Sweden did the same, until now. Easy for Austria to keep it that way now that they are a member of EU and completely surrounded by NATO countries. And in Ukraine we see that this strategy does not work when your neighbor is murderous.

ddalex 4y ago

Who the fuck cares what Russia demands. Do you ask your neighbor to approve your friend list ? Russia thought it could force the issue, and has had its ass handed back to them .

cortesoft 4y ago
> Do you ask your neighbor to approve your friend list? Well, if my neighbor had nukes pointed at my house, I might at least care what they thought.
- ddalex 4y ago
  And your friends have nukes pointed at the neighbors house - perhaps the neighbour wants to mind his words lest his house be turned in a glassed skate park.
  - matheusmoreira 4y ago
    So your friend is willing to risk planetary destruction over a friends list dispute with your neighbor? I'd think thrice before relying on them when such stakes are on the table.
    - ddalex 4y ago
      Well, the neighbour that doesn't like my friends broke into my house repeatedly, stole my last food a couple of times, kidnapped several household members, raped my wife and my kid; and now threatens to burn the whole city down if I don't give up my new friends that protect my house. So yes, lets' burn the city down, why should I live in hell and fear - it's better that no one lives, including the asshole neighbour.
      - matheusmoreira 4y ago
        So what? All that is nothing compared to the literal destruction of this planet. Better to let them walk all over you than risk destroying the world everybody lives in. I seriously doubt there is a single person in america willing to accept even the possibility of being utterly annihilated by nuclear fire over some foreign european nation. War against Vietnam or Iraq is one thing, war against Russia is on a completely different category.