17 ms·

Not having a coherent pitch is a defining element of OWS. Instead, the whole point of OWS is to make sure OWS persists, in the hopes that people keep hearing t

by drcode 15y ago

Not having a coherent pitch is a defining element of OWS. Instead, the whole point of OWS is to make sure OWS persists, in the hopes that people keep hearing their complaint that the government is in cahoots with big business. (whatever benefit may arise from this) The moment someone sets up a unified OWS platform, with demands, the movement will be over. (for good or ill.) The funny thing to me is that their core message (government is corrupt and helping big business) is essentially the core complaint of the Tea Partiers, as well.

jerf 15y ago
The complaints are similar, the proposed solutions are different. Broadly, the OWS crowd proposes to solve the problem of corrupt government by making it bigger and more powerful so it would hopefully take on corrupt Wall Street, the Tea Party crowd would make corrupt government smaller and less powerful, and a significant percentage of them also are in favor of making it impossible for businesses to get "too big to fail".
- jbooth 15y ago
  I didn't see any signs on OWS calling for "bigger, more powerful government". Changing a tax level on bankers doesn't change the size of government - spending does that. And OWS wants to cut from a bigger slice (defense) than the tea party seems to (domestic discretionary).
  - sp332 15y ago
    A lot (not all, maybe not most, but some of the louder ones) of the OWS people are calling for regulation of student debt, universal minimum income, and/or universal healthcare.
    - jbooth 15y ago
      Given the existing government entanglement into student debt and healthcare, I don't think calls for reform are necessarily "bigger government". And I haven't seen much call for universal minimum income, raising the already-existent minimum wage, maybe. Point is, this isn't about something so stupidly 1-dimensional as "the size of gov't". That's just something to tell the rubes.
  - jerf 15y ago
    A government that taxes more, forgives more debt at its whim, attacks bankers in new ways, etc, is a government exercising more power than it was before. If the protesters are not calling for government to intervene more muscularly than it is now, who exactly are they demonstrating to? If you want to claim that the government is already hip deep into everything and already has a great deal of power, and consequently bears a very large degree of responsibility for the problems we're in today, well, you're singing my song, but you might want to run that claim past the OWS protesters. I don't think you're going to find too many who would accept that defense. I grant you they're an amorphous lot, but claiming they're largely libertarians wouldn't pass the smell test. (I know 'em when I see 'em...)
    - jbooth 15y ago
      I'm not claiming they're largely libertarians. I'm saying all of the libertarians-since-2009 are either plutocrats in disguise or being taken for a ride. Where are they on military spending? How about the Republicans blocking Obama's proposal to cut the payroll tax? How about immigration policy and drug policy? The only time I hear "small government" extolled as a virtue is in defense of policies that screw the little guy. The OWS people are, once again, not campaigning for "more/less government intervention". They're campaigning against most government actions being driven by lobbyists and campaign donations.
- Vivtek 15y ago
  OWS crowd proposes to solve the problem of corrupt government by making it bigger and more powerful Citation needed, jerf. And when you look at whatever venue got this idea into your head, look even more closely at the owners of that venue.
deleted 15y ago
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Alex3917 15y ago
Exactly. The reason that OWS isn't making any specific demands is to remind everyone that those who keep asking 'what's the pitch' are part of the problem. Honestly if you can't identify the problems in this country on your own then you're not paying attention.
alexwolfe 15y ago
Also they are upset about many things failing not just one. And defining a pitch for an organic movement worldwide with hundreds of thousands of people is much much harder than creating one for a startup with a few people.

by drcode 15y ago

jerf 15y ago

The complaints are similar, the proposed solutions are different. Broadly, the OWS crowd proposes to solve the problem of corrupt government by making it bigger and more powerful so it would hopefully take on corrupt Wall Street, the Tea Party crowd would make corrupt government smaller and less powerful, and a significant percentage of them also are in favor of making it impossible for businesses to get "too big to fail".

jbooth 15y ago
I didn't see any signs on OWS calling for "bigger, more powerful government". Changing a tax level on bankers doesn't change the size of government - spending does that. And OWS wants to cut from a bigger slice (defense) than the tea party seems to (domestic discretionary).
- sp332 15y ago
  A lot (not all, maybe not most, but some of the louder ones) of the OWS people are calling for regulation of student debt, universal minimum income, and/or universal healthcare.
  - jbooth 15y ago
    Given the existing government entanglement into student debt and healthcare, I don't think calls for reform are necessarily "bigger government". And I haven't seen much call for universal minimum income, raising the already-existent minimum wage, maybe. Point is, this isn't about something so stupidly 1-dimensional as "the size of gov't". That's just something to tell the rubes.
- jerf 15y ago
  A government that taxes more, forgives more debt at its whim, attacks bankers in new ways, etc, is a government exercising more power than it was before. If the protesters are not calling for government to intervene more muscularly than it is now, who exactly are they demonstrating to? If you want to claim that the government is already hip deep into everything and already has a great deal of power, and consequently bears a very large degree of responsibility for the problems we're in today, well, you're singing my song, but you might want to run that claim past the OWS protesters. I don't think you're going to find too many who would accept that defense. I grant you they're an amorphous lot, but claiming they're largely libertarians wouldn't pass the smell test. (I know 'em when I see 'em...)
  - jbooth 15y ago
    I'm not claiming they're largely libertarians. I'm saying all of the libertarians-since-2009 are either plutocrats in disguise or being taken for a ride. Where are they on military spending? How about the Republicans blocking Obama's proposal to cut the payroll tax? How about immigration policy and drug policy? The only time I hear "small government" extolled as a virtue is in defense of policies that screw the little guy. The OWS people are, once again, not campaigning for "more/less government intervention". They're campaigning against most government actions being driven by lobbyists and campaign donations.
Vivtek 15y ago
OWS crowd proposes to solve the problem of corrupt government by making it bigger and more powerful Citation needed, jerf. And when you look at whatever venue got this idea into your head, look even more closely at the owners of that venue.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

Alex3917 15y ago

Exactly. The reason that OWS isn't making any specific demands is to remind everyone that those who keep asking 'what's the pitch' are part of the problem. Honestly if you can't identify the problems in this country on your own then you're not paying attention.

alexwolfe 15y ago

Also they are upset about many things failing not just one. And defining a pitch for an organic movement worldwide with hundreds of thousands of people is much much harder than creating one for a startup with a few people.