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Turks are trying to establish some diplomatic bridge with Russia; that's very good. Russian aggression in Ukraine is terrible, but I feel the US are not trying

by kome 4y ago

Turks are trying to establish some diplomatic bridge with Russia; that's very good. Russian aggression in Ukraine is terrible, but I feel the US are not trying to de-escalate anything. They are in full proxy-war mode. This can be very dangerous for Europe. France and Germany also would like to have more diplomacy, just like Turkey. Those countries have to live next to Russia - and maintaining a diplomatic relationship with Russia is vital. And this despite the fact that current Russian leadership is basically criminal. I don't think Sweden and Finland joining NATO is sending a good signal - or it's diplomatically wise. But let's see...

macintux 4y ago
The problem with de-escalation is this: what compromise is possible here? Ukraine should just give up its independence and land and ability to seek justice for the horrific war crimes? Russia has the power to de-escalate by withdrawing. Ukraine has the power to de-escalate by ceasing to exist.
- pydry 4y ago
  Abide by Minsk II, officially cede crimea (according to gallup this is what 80-90% of crimeans want), disband azov and promise never to join NATO. Theres a perfectly clear deescalation path and has been since before the war started. This war was many things but inevitable was never one of them. Deescalation is the last thing NATO or the US wants though.
  - macintux 4y ago
    A lot of words to say “give up their independence”. And Putin says the Minsk agreements no longer exist. (Updated to fix autocorrect typo)
  - drakonka 4y ago
    And giving up their land and independence is the last thing Ukrainians want, so it sounds like Ukraine and NATO are on the same page in terms of not appeasing a senile tyrant invading a sovereign nation.
    - pydry 4y ago
      It's what 90% of crimeans wanted according to gallup polling. The way I see it the west either fights for empire or we fight for democracy. If we fight for democracy then we respect votes we dont like whose results are independently verified by pollsters we trust. Particularly votes that breach the 90%+ threshold. That would match our principles. In Ukraine neither Kyiv, the west nor Russia fights for democracy though. Everybody fights for power, territory and, ultimately, empire.
      - drakonka 4y ago
        Do you believe a Gallup poll should dictate a country's borders or serve as justification for a nation being invaded by its neighbor?
        pydry 4y ago
        No, but I believe referenda should. Ukraine gained its independence that way after all. The gallup polls simply confirmed that the referendum that was run by Russian troops was more or less free and fair. I believe this is a good litmus test of peoples belief in democracy as a matter of principle. Belief in democracy means commitment to voting especially when you dont like the result. It appears a lot of people do not like democracy.
        drakonka 4y ago
        A referendum is a far cry from your original suggestion to "officially cede Crimea", though. There can be no legitimate referendum while a territory is under invasion. Suggesting a sovereign nation cede territory to an oppressive dictator who decided to invade it is antithetical to democracy, as is suggesting that said tyrant should be allowed to dictate which defensive alliance it joins.
        pydry 4y ago
        >A referendum is a far cry from your original suggestion to "officially cede Crimea", though The referendum already happened. My original suggestion was "respect the result" - what 90% or crimeans also want according to gallup - a western pollster. What you want is for their votes to be "corrected" to fall in line with strategic imperialist objectives. This is a position Putin would understand and respect. >There can be no legitimate referendum while a territory is under invasion. Actually I believe there can under three conditions: * The population want the referendum. * The referendum wouldnt have happened without invasion. * No vote coercion happened as a result of the invasion. All three conditions held for Crimea, as well as certain other places. These conditions held for Iraq also, for example. Once again: if you want to anull the results of a referendum because you dont like the result where there is no uncertainty about a free and fair result then you can only pretend to respect democracy.
cm2187 4y ago
But what do you mean by de-escalate? Give territorial concessions to Russia?
- stjohnswarts 4y ago
  I suspect is exactly what they want.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
praptak 4y ago
You know what country also lies next to Russia? Ukraine. Maybe ask them what they think of using diplomacy here. What kind of de-escalation is possible when it's Russia attacking the Ukrainian territory? Also it's not like RF can be trusted to stick to agreements, so what's the point in talks?
MisterBastahrd 4y ago
If you don't want a hegemonic superpower to gain additional power through protection rackets, then don't invade sovereign nations because you have cancer and want to feel better about yourself.
- matheusmoreira 4y ago
  > protection rackets Yeah, I wonder about that. Suppose Russia nuked some allied target. Is the USA willing to escalate to global nuclear war over that? Something tells me they won't come to anyone's aid.
_kbh_ 4y ago
The de-escalation is simple, Russia leaves all parts of Ukraine that is has occupied since 2014. It return they stop losing troops and armour at a rate which will end their armies existence entirely before the end of the year.
- rendang 4y ago
  UA would appear to be losing troops and materiel rather quickly as well, with a smaller population and economic base.
formerly_proven 4y ago
- hh3k0 4y ago
  He is likely worried that Ukraine's fierce resistance to the genocide of her people will cause him mild inconveniences. Of course, admitting that would make him look bad so he tries to warp it into some sort of moral principle. I've seen it an awfully lot recently and I think it is pathetic.
mkup 4y ago
Previous attempts of de-escalation have gone nowhere: Russia continues to attack its neighbours and annex their territory, or create puppet separatist states (Moldovan Transnistria in 1992, Georgian South Ossetia and Abkhazia in 1990s and 2008, Ukrainian Crimea and Donbass in 2014 and now the entire territory of Ukraine). If the Russians had succeeded with Ukraine, Lithuania or Poland would be next. Or Finland, or Sweden, or any other neighbour Russia deems weak enough to conquer with direct military force. You get my point. Russian territorial expansion is a recurring pattern, and no amount of western self-humiliation via "de-escalation" was going to end it. It had to end somewhere. As a Ukrainian who had to spend several weeks in evacuation in Lviv this spring, I'm glad it ended in Ukraine. (At least the new US Lend-Lease Act gives us hope that the wave of Russian territorial expansion will end in Ukraine.) Otherwise we'd have mass executions of civilians, as we had in Bucha, all over the 40 million country. A new Holocaust. For Ukrainians, as a nation, US Lend-Lease Act, military equipment aid from UK and other western nations who participated in Ramstein defence conference is the real salvation. And the day the Russian invaders are expelled would become a second Independence Day, as in the history of Kuwait and Iraq.
stjohnswarts 4y ago
All the US wants is for Russia to get out of Ukraine. They have not been there in decades. It's an easy request. France and Germany know that if Putin gets anything out of this he'll just attack Ukraine (even if he pulls out today) again until he gets what he wants.
alkonaut 4y ago
There was no problem having diplomatic relations with Germany after WW2. Relations were poor with nazi Germany and they are poor with Putin’s Russia.

by kome 4y ago

macintux 4y ago

The problem with de-escalation is this: what compromise is possible here? Ukraine should just give up its independence and land and ability to seek justice for the horrific war crimes? Russia has the power to de-escalate by withdrawing. Ukraine has the power to de-escalate by ceasing to exist.

pydry 4y ago
Abide by Minsk II, officially cede crimea (according to gallup this is what 80-90% of crimeans want), disband azov and promise never to join NATO. Theres a perfectly clear deescalation path and has been since before the war started. This war was many things but inevitable was never one of them. Deescalation is the last thing NATO or the US wants though.
- macintux 4y ago
  A lot of words to say “give up their independence”. And Putin says the Minsk agreements no longer exist. (Updated to fix autocorrect typo)
- drakonka 4y ago
  And giving up their land and independence is the last thing Ukrainians want, so it sounds like Ukraine and NATO are on the same page in terms of not appeasing a senile tyrant invading a sovereign nation.
  - pydry 4y ago
    It's what 90% of crimeans wanted according to gallup polling. The way I see it the west either fights for empire or we fight for democracy. If we fight for democracy then we respect votes we dont like whose results are independently verified by pollsters we trust. Particularly votes that breach the 90%+ threshold. That would match our principles. In Ukraine neither Kyiv, the west nor Russia fights for democracy though. Everybody fights for power, territory and, ultimately, empire.
    - drakonka 4y ago
      Do you believe a Gallup poll should dictate a country's borders or serve as justification for a nation being invaded by its neighbor?
      - pydry 4y ago
        No, but I believe referenda should. Ukraine gained its independence that way after all. The gallup polls simply confirmed that the referendum that was run by Russian troops was more or less free and fair. I believe this is a good litmus test of peoples belief in democracy as a matter of principle. Belief in democracy means commitment to voting especially when you dont like the result. It appears a lot of people do not like democracy.
        drakonka 4y ago
        A referendum is a far cry from your original suggestion to "officially cede Crimea", though. There can be no legitimate referendum while a territory is under invasion. Suggesting a sovereign nation cede territory to an oppressive dictator who decided to invade it is antithetical to democracy, as is suggesting that said tyrant should be allowed to dictate which defensive alliance it joins.
        pydry 4y ago
        >A referendum is a far cry from your original suggestion to "officially cede Crimea", though The referendum already happened. My original suggestion was "respect the result" - what 90% or crimeans also want according to gallup - a western pollster. What you want is for their votes to be "corrected" to fall in line with strategic imperialist objectives. This is a position Putin would understand and respect. >There can be no legitimate referendum while a territory is under invasion. Actually I believe there can under three conditions: * The population want the referendum. * The referendum wouldnt have happened without invasion. * No vote coercion happened as a result of the invasion. All three conditions held for Crimea, as well as certain other places. These conditions held for Iraq also, for example. Once again: if you want to anull the results of a referendum because you dont like the result where there is no uncertainty about a free and fair result then you can only pretend to respect democracy.

cm2187 4y ago

But what do you mean by de-escalate? Give territorial concessions to Russia?

stjohnswarts 4y ago
I suspect is exactly what they want.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

praptak 4y ago

You know what country also lies next to Russia? Ukraine. Maybe ask them what they think of using diplomacy here. What kind of de-escalation is possible when it's Russia attacking the Ukrainian territory? Also it's not like RF can be trusted to stick to agreements, so what's the point in talks?

MisterBastahrd 4y ago

If you don't want a hegemonic superpower to gain additional power through protection rackets, then don't invade sovereign nations because you have cancer and want to feel better about yourself.

matheusmoreira 4y ago
> protection rackets Yeah, I wonder about that. Suppose Russia nuked some allied target. Is the USA willing to escalate to global nuclear war over that? Something tells me they won't come to anyone's aid.

_kbh_ 4y ago

The de-escalation is simple, Russia leaves all parts of Ukraine that is has occupied since 2014. It return they stop losing troops and armour at a rate which will end their armies existence entirely before the end of the year.

rendang 4y ago
UA would appear to be losing troops and materiel rather quickly as well, with a smaller population and economic base.

formerly_proven 4y ago

hh3k0 4y ago
He is likely worried that Ukraine's fierce resistance to the genocide of her people will cause him mild inconveniences. Of course, admitting that would make him look bad so he tries to warp it into some sort of moral principle. I've seen it an awfully lot recently and I think it is pathetic.

mkup 4y ago

Previous attempts of de-escalation have gone nowhere: Russia continues to attack its neighbours and annex their territory, or create puppet separatist states (Moldovan Transnistria in 1992, Georgian South Ossetia and Abkhazia in 1990s and 2008, Ukrainian Crimea and Donbass in 2014 and now the entire territory of Ukraine). If the Russians had succeeded with Ukraine, Lithuania or Poland would be next. Or Finland, or Sweden, or any other neighbour Russia deems weak enough to conquer with direct military force. You get my point. Russian territorial expansion is a recurring pattern, and no amount of western self-humiliation via "de-escalation" was going to end it. It had to end somewhere. As a Ukrainian who had to spend several weeks in evacuation in Lviv this spring, I'm glad it ended in Ukraine. (At least the new US Lend-Lease Act gives us hope that the wave of Russian territorial expansion will end in Ukraine.) Otherwise we'd have mass executions of civilians, as we had in Bucha, all over the 40 million country. A new Holocaust. For Ukrainians, as a nation, US Lend-Lease Act, military equipment aid from UK and other western nations who participated in Ramstein defence conference is the real salvation. And the day the Russian invaders are expelled would become a second Independence Day, as in the history of Kuwait and Iraq.

stjohnswarts 4y ago

All the US wants is for Russia to get out of Ukraine. They have not been there in decades. It's an easy request. France and Germany know that if Putin gets anything out of this he'll just attack Ukraine (even if he pulls out today) again until he gets what he wants.

alkonaut 4y ago

There was no problem having diplomatic relations with Germany after WW2. Relations were poor with nazi Germany and they are poor with Putin’s Russia.