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you can point MetaMask to a different RPC endpoint or your own local node. it is like suggesting BitTorrent is centralized tech because many users download torr

by web4 4y ago

you can point MetaMask to a different RPC endpoint or your own local node. it is like suggesting BitTorrent is centralized tech because many users download torrents on a centralized website. most NFTs (of value) are using IPFS or Arweave not a URL.

Karunamon 4y ago
IPFS only enables decentralization, it doesn't guarantee it. I'd be willing to bet most NFT content is only pinned by the exchange.
- web4 4y ago
  maybe but this is still better than a centralized server URL for something that is designed to be owned by the commons. if the marketplace goes down users can just re-pin the asset. even if the asset has been completely garbage collected, if it is truly valuable (like Punks) probably at least one computer in the world will have the asset on-disk, and can just re-pin it to revive the IPFS url.
- kkielhofner 4y ago
  Most NFT content is hosted with HTTP(s). Many NFTs that reference an IPFS url point to a specific IPFS gateway run by the creator as opposed to a “standard” IPFS url with ipfs:// I know this because I have a product that indexes various blockchains and the referenced content.
  - Karunamon 4y ago
    Wow, the situation is even more dire than I thought. So by and large, the decentralization benefit is completely off the table for most NFTs. Would you be willing to share some numbers on what you're seeing? This is valuable information.
    - kkielhofner 4y ago
      We'll be providing these kinds of stats in real time when we launch!
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - web41 4y ago
    how many of those are minted with OpenSea? and how many are high value - not spam? OpenSea engineers should be shamed for their use of HTTPS URLs in contracts, but it is not the norm outside of their minting platform.
    - kkielhofner 4y ago
      Many are minted with OpenSea (of course). In any case across the 70 million or so NFTs I have indexed HTTP is definitely the majority.
      - web41 4y ago
        good to know! it would be worth taking a sample of higher value tokens that are not minted by OpenSea. probably the vast majority of those tokens are spam or bots trying to capitalize on existing web content like DeviantArt database. better platforms like Manifold, Foundation and Zora are already using IPFS or Arweave
- trainsarebetter 4y ago
  i think that’s the point. if effective storage proofs ever become a thing, then the later half (decentralized storage) will be standard
kkielhofner 4y ago
You certainly can point to a local blockchain node but the question is - have you ever run your own? Running your own blockchain node is nothing like BitTorrent. The required storage, memory, cpu, and IOPS performance is already pushing the limits of readily available standard hardware. This applies mostly to Ethereum. When you go to higher throughput chains like Solana and Polygon the node requirements jump to hardware that’s unobtainable/impractical for most people - top of the line NVMe drives with storage requirements beyond a single drive (typically need striping for IOPS anyway). Solana all but requires CUDA acceleration. Syncing the Solana devnet constantly uses at least 50% of my RTX 3090… IPFS is even worse - the CPU, memory, and bandwidth requirements to do anything beyond playing around are ridiculous. There’s a reason virtually everyone uses various node providers. This is rapidly setting the stage for all real-world uses of blockchain to end up on Web3 AWS (Alchemy, Infura, Piñata, etc). The entire Arweave network currently hosts about 64 TB of data. In the scope of a worldwide network that’s… Not a lot.
- po1nt 4y ago
  I believe these issues will solve over time by moore's law. By the time Web3 will be mainstream viable we will all be able to run nodes on our mobile phones.
  - kkielhofner 4y ago
    Phones have batteries and maintain the decent battery life they have with aggressive sleep, control of background processes, etc. Ethereum does a tiny number of transactions and I'm not sure Moore's law will keep up with any scale (see Solana and Polygon) as it applies to mobile devices. Then you still have the power and cell connectivity issues. No one is going to want to wait for their local node on mobile to take a half hour (or more) to sync after it's been disconnected/idle/etc for a few hours/days to make a transaction that should take seconds.
- web41 4y ago
  you can run an Ethereum node without running a full node. agree IPFS client is pretty janky but the idea of content addressable p2p hosting is not a bad thing. the goal of these base systems is not to be faster or easier to use than a centralized Amazon server. the goal is resistance to centralized control. mod note: my other account “web4” is rate limited after a couple comments?

by web4 4y ago

Karunamon 4y ago

IPFS only enables decentralization, it doesn't guarantee it. I'd be willing to bet most NFT content is only pinned by the exchange.

web4 4y ago
maybe but this is still better than a centralized server URL for something that is designed to be owned by the commons. if the marketplace goes down users can just re-pin the asset. even if the asset has been completely garbage collected, if it is truly valuable (like Punks) probably at least one computer in the world will have the asset on-disk, and can just re-pin it to revive the IPFS url.
kkielhofner 4y ago
Most NFT content is hosted with HTTP(s). Many NFTs that reference an IPFS url point to a specific IPFS gateway run by the creator as opposed to a “standard” IPFS url with ipfs:// I know this because I have a product that indexes various blockchains and the referenced content.
- Karunamon 4y ago
  Wow, the situation is even more dire than I thought. So by and large, the decentralization benefit is completely off the table for most NFTs. Would you be willing to share some numbers on what you're seeing? This is valuable information.
  - kkielhofner 4y ago
    We'll be providing these kinds of stats in real time when we launch!
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- web41 4y ago
  how many of those are minted with OpenSea? and how many are high value - not spam? OpenSea engineers should be shamed for their use of HTTPS URLs in contracts, but it is not the norm outside of their minting platform.
  - kkielhofner 4y ago
    Many are minted with OpenSea (of course). In any case across the 70 million or so NFTs I have indexed HTTP is definitely the majority.
    - web41 4y ago
      good to know! it would be worth taking a sample of higher value tokens that are not minted by OpenSea. probably the vast majority of those tokens are spam or bots trying to capitalize on existing web content like DeviantArt database. better platforms like Manifold, Foundation and Zora are already using IPFS or Arweave
trainsarebetter 4y ago
i think that’s the point. if effective storage proofs ever become a thing, then the later half (decentralized storage) will be standard

kkielhofner 4y ago

You certainly can point to a local blockchain node but the question is - have you ever run your own? Running your own blockchain node is nothing like BitTorrent. The required storage, memory, cpu, and IOPS performance is already pushing the limits of readily available standard hardware. This applies mostly to Ethereum. When you go to higher throughput chains like Solana and Polygon the node requirements jump to hardware that’s unobtainable/impractical for most people - top of the line NVMe drives with storage requirements beyond a single drive (typically need striping for IOPS anyway). Solana all but requires CUDA acceleration. Syncing the Solana devnet constantly uses at least 50% of my RTX 3090… IPFS is even worse - the CPU, memory, and bandwidth requirements to do anything beyond playing around are ridiculous. There’s a reason virtually everyone uses various node providers. This is rapidly setting the stage for all real-world uses of blockchain to end up on Web3 AWS (Alchemy, Infura, Piñata, etc). The entire Arweave network currently hosts about 64 TB of data. In the scope of a worldwide network that’s… Not a lot.

po1nt 4y ago
I believe these issues will solve over time by moore's law. By the time Web3 will be mainstream viable we will all be able to run nodes on our mobile phones.
- kkielhofner 4y ago
  Phones have batteries and maintain the decent battery life they have with aggressive sleep, control of background processes, etc. Ethereum does a tiny number of transactions and I'm not sure Moore's law will keep up with any scale (see Solana and Polygon) as it applies to mobile devices. Then you still have the power and cell connectivity issues. No one is going to want to wait for their local node on mobile to take a half hour (or more) to sync after it's been disconnected/idle/etc for a few hours/days to make a transaction that should take seconds.
web41 4y ago
you can run an Ethereum node without running a full node. agree IPFS client is pretty janky but the idea of content addressable p2p hosting is not a bad thing. the goal of these base systems is not to be faster or easier to use than a centralized Amazon server. the goal is resistance to centralized control. mod note: my other account “web4” is rate limited after a couple comments?