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Russia is party to several international treaties that allow it to be sued outside of Russian courts if it doesn't uphold intellectual property law, and if thos

Russia is party to several international treaties that allow it to be sued outside of Russian courts if it doesn't uphold intellectual property law, and if those suits do not go Russia's way, then it is now possible that Russian assets can be seized as compensation. Or, to oversimplify it, if Russia decides that anyone can use McDonald's trademark, then maybe Gazprom's pipelines won't be Russian anymore.

cft 5y ago
I don't think those pipelines are very useful without gas
- travisgriggs 5y ago
  Nor is the gas very useful without the pipelines. Mutually assured de-gasification as it were.
qalmakka 5y ago
Putin cares too much about his internal front. He will gladly throw any foreign property owned by the Russian state under the bus if he thinks giving the Russians the foreign brands they are accustomed to can quell any disobedience or unrest. Either Russia takes the nationalistic route and converts all of its fast food joints to Uncle Vania's, or it will surely reopen its McDonalds while violating their brands. I don't really think they give a damn anyway, their business relations with the West are gone for good and they won't be mended any time soon. Russia makes most of its money from primary sector exports (grains, oil, gas, minerals, ...), and that's basically the only thing they care about. They are building new markets in Asia for that, in countries like China that definitely don't give a damn about Burger King's IP or whatever. They know that unless Putin is deposed tomorrow and Russia demilitarises the Europeans will switch to LNG and North African natural gas anyway, they are just playing ball with what they have. Also, those properties in the West would probably get confiscated or sequestered very soon anyway.
- Tozen 5y ago
  I think you are right. I don't see many options for Putin. Russia's relationship to Western businesses is gone for at least a decade. Putin's best option is to confiscate any Western properties and businesses that won't play ball with him. Russia has become a pariah state, so it can just keep walking down that path anyway.
osipov 5y ago
dunkelheit 5y ago
You are a bit late to the party. Many Russian assets have already been seized, among them the Gazprom subsidiary in Germany. We are in a weird spot where Russia is very much interested in economic relationships continuing more or less as is (exemplified by the conciliatory rhetoric from the Russian government, essentially they are saying "no hard feelings, return any time" to the departing companies) so will mostly respect property rights. OTOH the West sees financial and economic relationships as their main weapon in this war so most funky moves related to property rights will be initiated by the Western governments (e.g. many "sanctions" essentially are extrajudiciary property seizures).
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > Many Russian assets have already been seized, among them the Gazprom subsidiary in Germany Most Russian assets have been frozen, not seized. The German subsidiary made news for being an exception in that Germany took control of the subsidiary. But it’s still Gazprom’s property.
  - thereddaikon 5y ago
    Are all of those mega yachts getting boarded not considered seized?
    - gbasin 5y ago
      That is my understanding. The property still belongs to the owners
      - tablespoon 5y ago
        >> Are all of those mega yachts getting boarded not considered seized? > That is my understanding. The property still belongs to the owners IIRC, there are efforts being made to outright seize stuff like the yachts, sell them, and give the proceeds to Ukraine. I'm not completely up on the details, though. I think some criteria might be if the property is de-facto owned by the Russian state, or was acquired due to corrupt association with it.
josefx 5y ago
The problem with that is that Putin doesn't seem to care about the damage to Russias economy and hijacking the gas pipelines is likely to do just as much damage to the countries downstream. One of Gazproms local off shots managing gas reserves was recently seized in Germany, however without Gazprom delivering gas its tanks will just stay empty and they represent a not insignificant amount of our winter reserves.
roenxi 5y ago
Hasn't the US already been seizing stuff somewhat randomly? I don't think there is a case that Russian yachts are contributing to the war effort, but there seems to be a push on to make off with them.
- adolph 5y ago
  The claim is the Russian rich folk commit criminal acts. The method is civil forfeiture. The outcome is nothing need be proven, the assertion is sufficient. “We are already working with our international partners to freeze and seize properties belonging to sanctioned Russian oligarchs worldwide,” said Attorney General Garland. “We will continue to work together to take all appropriate actions against those whose criminal acts enable the Russian government to continue its unjust war against Ukraine.” https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/us-departments-justice-and-treasury-launch-multilateral-russian-oligarch-task-force https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/us-departments-justice-and-tr... Reward program: https://home.treasury.gov/about/offices/terrorism-and-financial-intelligence/terrorist-financing-and-financial-crimes/kleptocracy-asset-recovery-rewards-program https://home.treasury.gov/about/offices/terrorism-and-financ...
  - roenxi 5y ago
    > Russia is party to several international treaties that allow it to be sued outside of Russian courts if it doesn't uphold intellectual property law... > The outcome is nothing need be proven, the assertion is sufficient... There seem to be inconsistent messages in this thread. Do we need to prove anything to take stuff off the Russians or don't we?
    - tut-urut-utut 5y ago
      > There seem to be inconsistent messages in this thread. Do we need to prove anything to take stuff off the Russians or don't we? Isn't it like it has always been in human history? You don't need to prove anything if your goal is total destruction of your enemy and everything associated with them. Just do what you think will harm them the most. Until the total destruction of one or another side. Or the whole humanity. The only thing I don't understand here is why some people act surprised when that same enemy fight back using the same or similar means? Like seizing property and assets of companies, citizens, and administration of one state, and then complaining that intellectual property of your administration, company, or citizens might not be respected in that same country?
johannes1234321 5y ago
> then maybe Gazprom's pipelines won't be Russian anymore. Germany already took over control of Gazprom Germania, with tanks and pipelines within Germany. So that isn't much of a threat. https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/DE/Fachthemen/ElektrizitaetundGas/Versorgungssicherheit/aktuelle_gasversorgung/Treuhand/LetterOfComfort.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=1 https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/DE/Fachthemen/Elektrizitaet... (PDF, German language)
- _ph_ 5y ago
  Not quite. It is still the property of Gazprom, but the control is exercised by the German authorities at the moment to ensure proper operations.
  - raxxorraxor 5y ago
    Also if it weren't taken over it would be subject to sanctions as well.
  - johannes1234321 5y ago
    That is a legal nuisance. Operational control is with the government. Profits (if there are any) won't be paid out. Thus who is listed as owner doesn't matter for any practical purposes. It however allows to give back control in case the situation is cleared. But that doesn't seem likely, thus the company will slowly be dismantled.
hans_castorp 5y ago
> Russia is party to several international treaties Russia (or more precisely Putin) obviously gives a sh* about international treaties. The invasion in Ukraine breaches more than just one such treaty. So why would they care about intellectual property?

cft 5y ago

I don't think those pipelines are very useful without gas

travisgriggs 5y ago
Nor is the gas very useful without the pipelines. Mutually assured de-gasification as it were.

qalmakka 5y ago

Putin cares too much about his internal front. He will gladly throw any foreign property owned by the Russian state under the bus if he thinks giving the Russians the foreign brands they are accustomed to can quell any disobedience or unrest. Either Russia takes the nationalistic route and converts all of its fast food joints to Uncle Vania's, or it will surely reopen its McDonalds while violating their brands. I don't really think they give a damn anyway, their business relations with the West are gone for good and they won't be mended any time soon. Russia makes most of its money from primary sector exports (grains, oil, gas, minerals, ...), and that's basically the only thing they care about. They are building new markets in Asia for that, in countries like China that definitely don't give a damn about Burger King's IP or whatever. They know that unless Putin is deposed tomorrow and Russia demilitarises the Europeans will switch to LNG and North African natural gas anyway, they are just playing ball with what they have. Also, those properties in the West would probably get confiscated or sequestered very soon anyway.

Tozen 5y ago
I think you are right. I don't see many options for Putin. Russia's relationship to Western businesses is gone for at least a decade. Putin's best option is to confiscate any Western properties and businesses that won't play ball with him. Russia has become a pariah state, so it can just keep walking down that path anyway.

osipov 5y ago

dunkelheit 5y ago

You are a bit late to the party. Many Russian assets have already been seized, among them the Gazprom subsidiary in Germany. We are in a weird spot where Russia is very much interested in economic relationships continuing more or less as is (exemplified by the conciliatory rhetoric from the Russian government, essentially they are saying "no hard feelings, return any time" to the departing companies) so will mostly respect property rights. OTOH the West sees financial and economic relationships as their main weapon in this war so most funky moves related to property rights will be initiated by the Western governments (e.g. many "sanctions" essentially are extrajudiciary property seizures).

JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> Many Russian assets have already been seized, among them the Gazprom subsidiary in Germany Most Russian assets have been frozen, not seized. The German subsidiary made news for being an exception in that Germany took control of the subsidiary. But it’s still Gazprom’s property.
- thereddaikon 5y ago
  Are all of those mega yachts getting boarded not considered seized?
  - gbasin 5y ago
    That is my understanding. The property still belongs to the owners
    - tablespoon 5y ago
      >> Are all of those mega yachts getting boarded not considered seized? > That is my understanding. The property still belongs to the owners IIRC, there are efforts being made to outright seize stuff like the yachts, sell them, and give the proceeds to Ukraine. I'm not completely up on the details, though. I think some criteria might be if the property is de-facto owned by the Russian state, or was acquired due to corrupt association with it.

josefx 5y ago

The problem with that is that Putin doesn't seem to care about the damage to Russias economy and hijacking the gas pipelines is likely to do just as much damage to the countries downstream. One of Gazproms local off shots managing gas reserves was recently seized in Germany, however without Gazprom delivering gas its tanks will just stay empty and they represent a not insignificant amount of our winter reserves.

roenxi 5y ago

Hasn't the US already been seizing stuff somewhat randomly? I don't think there is a case that Russian yachts are contributing to the war effort, but there seems to be a push on to make off with them.

adolph 5y ago
The claim is the Russian rich folk commit criminal acts. The method is civil forfeiture. The outcome is nothing need be proven, the assertion is sufficient. “We are already working with our international partners to freeze and seize properties belonging to sanctioned Russian oligarchs worldwide,” said Attorney General Garland. “We will continue to work together to take all appropriate actions against those whose criminal acts enable the Russian government to continue its unjust war against Ukraine.” https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/us-departments-justice-and-treasury-launch-multilateral-russian-oligarch-task-force https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/us-departments-justice-and-tr... Reward program: https://home.treasury.gov/about/offices/terrorism-and-financial-intelligence/terrorist-financing-and-financial-crimes/kleptocracy-asset-recovery-rewards-program https://home.treasury.gov/about/offices/terrorism-and-financ...
- roenxi 5y ago
  > Russia is party to several international treaties that allow it to be sued outside of Russian courts if it doesn't uphold intellectual property law... > The outcome is nothing need be proven, the assertion is sufficient... There seem to be inconsistent messages in this thread. Do we need to prove anything to take stuff off the Russians or don't we?
  - tut-urut-utut 5y ago
    > There seem to be inconsistent messages in this thread. Do we need to prove anything to take stuff off the Russians or don't we? Isn't it like it has always been in human history? You don't need to prove anything if your goal is total destruction of your enemy and everything associated with them. Just do what you think will harm them the most. Until the total destruction of one or another side. Or the whole humanity. The only thing I don't understand here is why some people act surprised when that same enemy fight back using the same or similar means? Like seizing property and assets of companies, citizens, and administration of one state, and then complaining that intellectual property of your administration, company, or citizens might not be respected in that same country?

johannes1234321 5y ago

> then maybe Gazprom's pipelines won't be Russian anymore. Germany already took over control of Gazprom Germania, with tanks and pipelines within Germany. So that isn't much of a threat. https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/DE/Fachthemen/ElektrizitaetundGas/Versorgungssicherheit/aktuelle_gasversorgung/Treuhand/LetterOfComfort.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=1 https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/DE/Fachthemen/Elektrizitaet... (PDF, German language)

_ph_ 5y ago
Not quite. It is still the property of Gazprom, but the control is exercised by the German authorities at the moment to ensure proper operations.
- raxxorraxor 5y ago
  Also if it weren't taken over it would be subject to sanctions as well.
- johannes1234321 5y ago
  That is a legal nuisance. Operational control is with the government. Profits (if there are any) won't be paid out. Thus who is listed as owner doesn't matter for any practical purposes. It however allows to give back control in case the situation is cleared. But that doesn't seem likely, thus the company will slowly be dismantled.

hans_castorp 5y ago

> Russia is party to several international treaties Russia (or more precisely Putin) obviously gives a sh* about international treaties. The invasion in Ukraine breaches more than just one such treaty. So why would they care about intellectual property?