4 ms·

One of the most important ideas out there: Open Borders I think it's the only sensible policy if you are egalitarian and cosmopolitan. https://openborders.inf

by yboris 4y ago

One of the most important ideas out there: Open Borders I think it's the only sensible policy if you are egalitarian and cosmopolitan. https://openborders.info/ https://openborders.info/

refurb 4y ago
This could never work. First off, you can't offer social programs to the entire world's poor without going broke. So you could just offer them to citizens (as per Singapore), but on top of that you need to kick everyone out who shouldn't be there otherwise you end up with a massive underclass and huge social problems.
jleyank 4y ago
Today,I would think the us isn’t either one of these…
UmbertoNoEco 4y ago
I am very partial to open borders, but I concede there is not a practical solution yet. There is a book (I forgot the title at this time) of an economist where he "shows" (fwiw) how open borders could multiply the world productivity by a high factor, decreasing global inequality and other many positive effects. On the other hand there is the risk that an idyllic and safe community may be overrun but people who dont respect or adapt to the new environment. For me a (still very theoretical) situation would be: - People still keep their current nationalities - Everyone has the right to a 3-month tourist visa to any country, no question asked, unless you are a fugitive o has been banned from leaving your country for some valid reason. You can return to the country if you want, 180 days after leaving it. - If you get a job offer you have the right to a 1 year probationary working visa. You must stay for a least 6 months, but after that you can switch jobs if you want. If you are fired within the first 6 months, you still receive 6 month- 1 year permit to get a new job without having to leave the country. After the first year, you get a 2 year permit and after that you can get permanent residency if you want. - If you commit any serious crime (say, having to serve +6 months) you are immediately deported and banned forever from that country,another of that offenses and you can't leave your country of origin. - If you overstay your visa you must be also "punished" with some kind of temporary banning on your passport, heavier penalties for repeating offenders. I know this is still very naive and crude, but we need to move towards a refined system in that style. The better we improve the big inequalities we have in the world the easier will be to implement it ( I know, I know). For me it is very absurd how just because of a simple accident of where one was born it may be forbidden to visit or work in a good portion of this planet. I am optimistic in the very long term, future generations will see this situation as absurd as we see now things like serfdom,having to swear loyalty to God and King or the probably mythical prima noctis notion.
blululu 4y ago
This is a pretty strong statement for a simple policy on a complicated set of issues. Open borders are cosmopolitan but they also rely upon a very specific set of culturally rooted practices, laws, and civic institutions (unless we will have a global vote on these things?). They are egalitarian for people across communities but they do nothing to address existing inequalities within communities. (One could also say that if we are going to be truly egalitarian we need to guarantee a basic set of economic benefits to all people). This kind of policy prioritizes a certain set of rights for a certain set of people without troubling itself over the health and well being of existing communities and their right to exist (the widespread complaints about gentrification don't come out of nowhere). I frequently see people say things to the tune of 'if you can't afford to live in a high cost of living area then move'. That's great advice if one place is as good as the next, but if you were born in said high COL area and your family is there then it is a pretty callous suggestion. Immigration is generally a good thing, but it also comes with costs and downsides. A sensible policy on immigration should take these concerns into account.

by yboris 4y ago

One of the most important ideas out there: Open Borders I think it's the only sensible policy if you are egalitarian and cosmopolitan. https://openborders.info/ https://openborders.info/

refurb 4y ago

This could never work. First off, you can't offer social programs to the entire world's poor without going broke. So you could just offer them to citizens (as per Singapore), but on top of that you need to kick everyone out who shouldn't be there otherwise you end up with a massive underclass and huge social problems.

jleyank 4y ago

Today,I would think the us isn’t either one of these…

UmbertoNoEco 4y ago

I am very partial to open borders, but I concede there is not a practical solution yet. There is a book (I forgot the title at this time) of an economist where he "shows" (fwiw) how open borders could multiply the world productivity by a high factor, decreasing global inequality and other many positive effects. On the other hand there is the risk that an idyllic and safe community may be overrun but people who dont respect or adapt to the new environment. For me a (still very theoretical) situation would be: - People still keep their current nationalities - Everyone has the right to a 3-month tourist visa to any country, no question asked, unless you are a fugitive o has been banned from leaving your country for some valid reason. You can return to the country if you want, 180 days after leaving it. - If you get a job offer you have the right to a 1 year probationary working visa. You must stay for a least 6 months, but after that you can switch jobs if you want. If you are fired within the first 6 months, you still receive 6 month- 1 year permit to get a new job without having to leave the country. After the first year, you get a 2 year permit and after that you can get permanent residency if you want. - If you commit any serious crime (say, having to serve +6 months) you are immediately deported and banned forever from that country,another of that offenses and you can't leave your country of origin. - If you overstay your visa you must be also "punished" with some kind of temporary banning on your passport, heavier penalties for repeating offenders. I know this is still very naive and crude, but we need to move towards a refined system in that style. The better we improve the big inequalities we have in the world the easier will be to implement it ( I know, I know). For me it is very absurd how just because of a simple accident of where one was born it may be forbidden to visit or work in a good portion of this planet. I am optimistic in the very long term, future generations will see this situation as absurd as we see now things like serfdom,having to swear loyalty to God and King or the probably mythical prima noctis notion.

blululu 4y ago

This is a pretty strong statement for a simple policy on a complicated set of issues. Open borders are cosmopolitan but they also rely upon a very specific set of culturally rooted practices, laws, and civic institutions (unless we will have a global vote on these things?). They are egalitarian for people across communities but they do nothing to address existing inequalities within communities. (One could also say that if we are going to be truly egalitarian we need to guarantee a basic set of economic benefits to all people). This kind of policy prioritizes a certain set of rights for a certain set of people without troubling itself over the health and well being of existing communities and their right to exist (the widespread complaints about gentrification don't come out of nowhere). I frequently see people say things to the tune of 'if you can't afford to live in a high cost of living area then move'. That's great advice if one place is as good as the next, but if you were born in said high COL area and your family is there then it is a pretty callous suggestion. Immigration is generally a good thing, but it also comes with costs and downsides. A sensible policy on immigration should take these concerns into account.