4 ms·

MIT, Harvard scientists find AI recognizes race from X-rays and nobody knows how

jleyank 4y ago
It's twigging to differences in the input data. Whether it's how the forehead is arranged, the chin, eye sockets, cheekbones, ... There is something or a set of something that is correlated with race that's being picked up. If it's whole body, maybe it's height, leg length/pattern, whatever.
- quantified 4y ago
  Why would anyone be surprised? There are at least as many things to “see” below the skin as at the surface.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - car_analogy 4y ago
    Likely due to all the "race is skin deep and/or a social construct" rhetoric.
    - washadjeffmad 4y ago
      Human "race" is, because all human populations can reproduce with one another. Race is a poor descriptor for geographic ancestry. Lumping people who don't share geographic ancestors together by phenotype is the greatest form of "race mixing" a society can do.
      - car_analogy 4y ago
        > Human "race" is, because all human populations can reproduce with one another. You're thinking of "species".
        washadjeffmad 4y ago
        Human "race" is [false] is what I'd hoped to imply. "Race" was misapplied to humans before the discovery of genes and is a pseudo-intellectual, pseudo-scientific excuse to authoritatively classify and separate people based only on shallow, false differences. It is eugenic in purpose. Belief in blood purity is an old religion, and Jefferson cited that it took a fixed number of generations for the "blood to clear" after what some today would call "race mixing". Non-white "blood" was seen as an impurity, a taint. An updated understanding accommodating modern genetics was readily applied to horse and dog breeding, but it seems the concept is too convenient to some to let go of when it comes to fellow humans.
        quantified 4y ago
        And yet there are strong physiogenic correlations among the stereotypes of race. Whether they make enough difference to care about socially or politically is more of an aesthetic decision. ("I like your kind/I scorn your kind".) Mating/breeding ability is sort of a continental drift. Horses and donkeys can breed, as can lions and tigers. They are more strongly distinguished than Australian aboriginals and Swedes. Who knows how many generations it would take before we'd start to separate procreationally, if the "races" didn't like to share their genes around the edges of their territories. We forget we've had different species of human in the past. The bugbear is probably that if brain structure or function is in any way also correlated with the other traits (not caused, just correlated), or things like adrenaline production that might influence temper, then the whole superiority/inferiority thing all of a sudden has the possibility of legs. We've learned that redheads have different pain sensitivities, for example.
- WalterGR 4y ago
  Not to be missed, though, is the issue of explainability in machine learning. Explainable AI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explainable_artificial_intelligence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explainable_artificial_intelli... Edit: Coincidentally, someone just posted this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31390564 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31390564 - "Breaking into the black box of artificial intelligence (nature.com)".
SemanticStrengh 4y ago
phrenology strikes again
jmprspret 4y ago
Khelavaster 4y ago
It's been known for 20 years that "alpha -melanocyte-stimulating hormone is a novel regulator of bone". (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12618359/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12618359/).

It's twigging to differences in the input data. Whether it's how the forehead is arranged, the chin, eye sockets, cheekbones, ... There is something or a set of something that is correlated with race that's being picked up. If it's whole body, maybe it's height, leg length/pattern, whatever.

quantified 4y ago
Why would anyone be surprised? There are at least as many things to “see” below the skin as at the surface.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- car_analogy 4y ago
  Likely due to all the "race is skin deep and/or a social construct" rhetoric.
  - washadjeffmad 4y ago
    Human "race" is, because all human populations can reproduce with one another. Race is a poor descriptor for geographic ancestry. Lumping people who don't share geographic ancestors together by phenotype is the greatest form of "race mixing" a society can do.
    - car_analogy 4y ago
      > Human "race" is, because all human populations can reproduce with one another. You're thinking of "species".
      - washadjeffmad 4y ago
        Human "race" is [false] is what I'd hoped to imply. "Race" was misapplied to humans before the discovery of genes and is a pseudo-intellectual, pseudo-scientific excuse to authoritatively classify and separate people based only on shallow, false differences. It is eugenic in purpose. Belief in blood purity is an old religion, and Jefferson cited that it took a fixed number of generations for the "blood to clear" after what some today would call "race mixing". Non-white "blood" was seen as an impurity, a taint. An updated understanding accommodating modern genetics was readily applied to horse and dog breeding, but it seems the concept is too convenient to some to let go of when it comes to fellow humans.
        quantified 4y ago
        And yet there are strong physiogenic correlations among the stereotypes of race. Whether they make enough difference to care about socially or politically is more of an aesthetic decision. ("I like your kind/I scorn your kind".) Mating/breeding ability is sort of a continental drift. Horses and donkeys can breed, as can lions and tigers. They are more strongly distinguished than Australian aboriginals and Swedes. Who knows how many generations it would take before we'd start to separate procreationally, if the "races" didn't like to share their genes around the edges of their territories. We forget we've had different species of human in the past. The bugbear is probably that if brain structure or function is in any way also correlated with the other traits (not caused, just correlated), or things like adrenaline production that might influence temper, then the whole superiority/inferiority thing all of a sudden has the possibility of legs. We've learned that redheads have different pain sensitivities, for example.
WalterGR 4y ago
Not to be missed, though, is the issue of explainability in machine learning. Explainable AI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explainable_artificial_intelligence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explainable_artificial_intelli... Edit: Coincidentally, someone just posted this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31390564 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31390564 - "Breaking into the black box of artificial intelligence (nature.com)".

SemanticStrengh 4y ago

phrenology strikes again

jmprspret 4y ago

Khelavaster 4y ago

It's been known for 20 years that "alpha -melanocyte-stimulating hormone is a novel regulator of bone". (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12618359/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12618359/).