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> It's not obvious that it immediately helps their bottom line In the UK phone operators have complained about it on the basis that: > [it allows Apple] to le

> It's not obvious that it immediately helps their bottom line In the UK phone operators have complained about it on the basis that: > [it allows Apple] to leverage its considerable market power into many areas of the market and thus being able to further entrench its position ... Network providers would no longer be able to use web traffic data over Safari to develop their own digital products and services that complete directly with Apple. For example, a network provider may no longer have access to information about a user's content viewing habits to develop their own content that competes with Apple TV. Similarly, a network provider may no longer be able to share consumer insight with third parties that provide digital advertizing services in competition with Apple Search Ads... How true that is, who knows, but it's an interesting angle on how it benefits Apple

AlexandrB 4y ago
The entitlement of companies that make money on surveillance is staggering. There is no world where I want my ISP to have access to information about my content viewing habits. Why is this not an opt-in?
dlivingston 4y ago
All that verbiage to effectively say: “we cannot track the user and monetize their data.”
- headsoup 4y ago
  I guess the question is whether an end-to-end walled garden is a good solution to tracking or not? And whether Apple can only track their own services/apps or other user data/activity. Providing Safari makes it interesting
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- darkerside 4y ago
  It implies that Apple can and will use this data to inform its own products, which does seem anticompetitive. Whether that's true or not, I don't know.
  - mojzu 4y ago
    My understanding of the design of private relay is that Apple cannot see this data as it works with a third party relay (Cloudflare I think?) to blind themselves to it That complaint by the telcos is what convinced me to turn it on, the entire thing was a big whinge by them about not being able to spy on users anymore (and the hilarious claim that Apple was doing it to move users off Safari)
    - sandworm101 4y ago
      They cannot see the data because they have chosen not to see it. That is different than being unable to see it. As the creator of the software, Apple could disable to circumvent its own system to bypass these protections, perhaps in response to a legal obligation. A proper implementation, something like Tor, would be a designed to blind all network participants, including the evil ones.
      - scoopertrooper 4y ago
        That may be the case, but it misses the point. If Apple is not presently doing this, then they are not abusing their market position in gain an unfair advantage.
      - Spooky23 4y ago
        Then the tor exit node people could read the traffic. Do what I do, i encode all emails into giant QR codes on paper that will fade in 72 hours. I then have a staffer chain a briefcase with the email to his or her wrist and fly to the recipient in a private jet. The one time pads are delivered by a separate courier.
        kortilla 4y ago
- criddell 4y ago
  > “we cannot track the user and monetize their data.” unless the user consents. So evil.
jen20 4y ago
> a network provider may no longer have access to information about a user's content viewing That’s… kinda the point, no? To prevent scummy people doing scummy things.
- acomjean 4y ago
  At the same time are basically putting your trust in one company (apple) in this case to not do scummy things. But as pointed out this can be a way of helping themselves hold and expand various market positions.. which may or may not be scummy too. And who knows where they’ll be what they’ll change in a few years when the need to increase profits. Im not supper trusting of any of these big companies. I don’t love regulations but we seem to be headed to some weird monopolistic place.
  - s3p 4y ago
    Not buying this. There is now a default option for end-users to protect their privacy in ways they previously could not. Users who don't know the ins and outs of VPNs, people who aren't as well versed with technology as us. THAT is who this benefits the most. They went from having nothing to now potentially something. I also don't buy the whole "well your data might not be shared with X anymore but you're trusting Apple with it". What's the point? Anyone who uses literally any other major operating system is going to deal with the same thing. And the alternative? Android? Unless you want to switch to an indie fork of Android then the telemetry is much worse.
  - jen20 4y ago
    They build the operating system and the firmware, and design the CPUs. Maybe possibly protecting against some hypothetical future problem vs a real problem that exists today is not a good trade off.
  - lolinder 4y ago
    If you're using an iPhone, you already are trusting Apple to not do scummy things. If they wanted to, they could snoop all your traffic with or without Private Relay. What Private Relay does appear to do is guarantee that no one besides Apple can do scummy things. That's a definite improvement.
Spooky23 4y ago
Boo hoo. So people who sell a service and engage in surveillance to extract money through some other means are upset because another company is selling a service that provides a documented feature that prevents said surveillance. Why wouldn’t that argument apply to normal VPN? Wouldn’t the mobile carrier be able to provide a spectrum of value-added services if they understood how my employees work? For example, if they were able to see that my accounts payable folks were recording information in SharePoint forms, they could offer a forms solution that was more efficient!
- kergonath 4y ago
  The National Association of Foxes is really upset that a company dares selling (slightly more) secure henhouses.
- philjohn 4y ago
  Except it's my belief that Apple is doing this so that THEY are the ones collecting and using this data, under the guises of privacy. See also getting into Ads after kneecapping the competition.
MarkMarine 4y ago
Good. Anything that gets complaints worded that way from companies that I am paying for a service that has nothing to do with watching my traffic and injecting ads into it without my permission sounds good to me.
CircleSpokes 4y ago
It's not clear to me what data they are talking about? They talk about things like Apple TV and users content viewing habits but what info does an ISP even have about that other that things like time, data usage, what IP they connect to, etc? The really valuable things like what kind of content the users are watching is encrypted by TLS. Seems like a really silly statement to me.

AlexandrB 4y ago

The entitlement of companies that make money on surveillance is staggering. There is no world where I want my ISP to have access to information about my content viewing habits. Why is this not an opt-in?

dlivingston 4y ago

All that verbiage to effectively say: “we cannot track the user and monetize their data.”

headsoup 4y ago
I guess the question is whether an end-to-end walled garden is a good solution to tracking or not? And whether Apple can only track their own services/apps or other user data/activity. Providing Safari makes it interesting
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
darkerside 4y ago
It implies that Apple can and will use this data to inform its own products, which does seem anticompetitive. Whether that's true or not, I don't know.
- mojzu 4y ago
  My understanding of the design of private relay is that Apple cannot see this data as it works with a third party relay (Cloudflare I think?) to blind themselves to it That complaint by the telcos is what convinced me to turn it on, the entire thing was a big whinge by them about not being able to spy on users anymore (and the hilarious claim that Apple was doing it to move users off Safari)
  - sandworm101 4y ago
    They cannot see the data because they have chosen not to see it. That is different than being unable to see it. As the creator of the software, Apple could disable to circumvent its own system to bypass these protections, perhaps in response to a legal obligation. A proper implementation, something like Tor, would be a designed to blind all network participants, including the evil ones.
    - scoopertrooper 4y ago
      That may be the case, but it misses the point. If Apple is not presently doing this, then they are not abusing their market position in gain an unfair advantage.
    - Spooky23 4y ago
      Then the tor exit node people could read the traffic. Do what I do, i encode all emails into giant QR codes on paper that will fade in 72 hours. I then have a staffer chain a briefcase with the email to his or her wrist and fly to the recipient in a private jet. The one time pads are delivered by a separate courier.
      - kortilla 4y ago
criddell 4y ago
> “we cannot track the user and monetize their data.” unless the user consents. So evil.

jen20 4y ago

> a network provider may no longer have access to information about a user's content viewing That’s… kinda the point, no? To prevent scummy people doing scummy things.

acomjean 4y ago
At the same time are basically putting your trust in one company (apple) in this case to not do scummy things. But as pointed out this can be a way of helping themselves hold and expand various market positions.. which may or may not be scummy too. And who knows where they’ll be what they’ll change in a few years when the need to increase profits. Im not supper trusting of any of these big companies. I don’t love regulations but we seem to be headed to some weird monopolistic place.
- s3p 4y ago
  Not buying this. There is now a default option for end-users to protect their privacy in ways they previously could not. Users who don't know the ins and outs of VPNs, people who aren't as well versed with technology as us. THAT is who this benefits the most. They went from having nothing to now potentially something. I also don't buy the whole "well your data might not be shared with X anymore but you're trusting Apple with it". What's the point? Anyone who uses literally any other major operating system is going to deal with the same thing. And the alternative? Android? Unless you want to switch to an indie fork of Android then the telemetry is much worse.
- jen20 4y ago
  They build the operating system and the firmware, and design the CPUs. Maybe possibly protecting against some hypothetical future problem vs a real problem that exists today is not a good trade off.
- lolinder 4y ago
  If you're using an iPhone, you already are trusting Apple to not do scummy things. If they wanted to, they could snoop all your traffic with or without Private Relay. What Private Relay does appear to do is guarantee that no one besides Apple can do scummy things. That's a definite improvement.

Spooky23 4y ago

Boo hoo. So people who sell a service and engage in surveillance to extract money through some other means are upset because another company is selling a service that provides a documented feature that prevents said surveillance. Why wouldn’t that argument apply to normal VPN? Wouldn’t the mobile carrier be able to provide a spectrum of value-added services if they understood how my employees work? For example, if they were able to see that my accounts payable folks were recording information in SharePoint forms, they could offer a forms solution that was more efficient!

kergonath 4y ago
The National Association of Foxes is really upset that a company dares selling (slightly more) secure henhouses.
philjohn 4y ago
Except it's my belief that Apple is doing this so that THEY are the ones collecting and using this data, under the guises of privacy. See also getting into Ads after kneecapping the competition.

MarkMarine 4y ago

Good. Anything that gets complaints worded that way from companies that I am paying for a service that has nothing to do with watching my traffic and injecting ads into it without my permission sounds good to me.

CircleSpokes 4y ago

It's not clear to me what data they are talking about? They talk about things like Apple TV and users content viewing habits but what info does an ISP even have about that other that things like time, data usage, what IP they connect to, etc? The really valuable things like what kind of content the users are watching is encrypted by TLS. Seems like a really silly statement to me.