3 ms·

> rights that you, as a cis person, are willing to give them? The problem with these particular "rights" is that they are not actually rights, but impositions

> rights that you, as a cis person, are willing to give them? The problem with these particular "rights" is that they are not actually rights, but impositions on the rights of others. It's disingenuous to compare being trans to race or being gay. Race and orientation is an immutable characteristic of the person. As yet, gender dysmorphia is recognized as a mental illness, which requires therapy, hormones and surgery to accommodate or treat. Arguments about these particular trans rights can also apply to, for example, the rights of schizophrenics to have their delusions indulged by everyone else. With self-identification, the problem of "rights" becomes even more intractable, because unlike race or orientation, one can just declare oneself "trans" and thereby gain access to, say, physically weaker athletic opponents. Or to more vulnerable sexual prey, in the case of prisons.

dragonwriter 4y ago
> Race and orientation is an immutable characteristic of the person. That is no more true that it is of gender identity. > As yet, gender dysmorphia is recognized as a mental illness So was homosexuality (also, you’ve confused dysphoria with dysmorphia. Also also, the diagnosable condition of gender dysphoria is not the same thing as having transgender identity; they are distinct.) > which requires therapy, hormones and surgery to accommodate or treat. People often get therapy, hormonal treatments, and surgery to deal with the failure of their body to conform to their image of their gender assigned at birth, but we don't call the need for these things a “mental illness” or gatekeep access to gender affirming treatments aligned with gender assigned at birth on distress reaching the dangerous levels that would be diagnosable as a mental illness.
- rendall 4y ago
  I don't think you have argued very well, here. Just minimally addressed some points, ignored others. >> Race and orientation is an immutable characteristic of the person. > That is no more true that it is of gender identity. Not an argument. Clever rejoinders will not convince people that mentally ill men should be in women's prisons or sports teams. You will have to actually engage with the concerns that people have. How do you deal with self-identification and predatory men going into women's locker rooms? Just denying that it could ever happen is not going to work. >> As yet, gender dysmorphia is recognized as a mental illness > So was homosexuality Not an argument. Declassifying homosexuality as a mental illness does not mean gender dysphoria is not. As for the rest, we literally do call that behavior mental illness. I'm fine with people doing whatever they want with their own bodies as long as their behavior doesn't impact other people. Taking female hormones, great. Taking female hormones and then insisting that everyone else perceive them as women is not.
- skelpie_6000 4y ago
  > > Race and orientation is an immutable characteristic of the person. > That is no more true that it is of gender identity. Some people detransition, i.e. their gender identity changes back to match their sex. This demonstrates that gender identity is not immutable. For example, here's a fascinating piece by a recent detransitioner, about how, and why, her gender identity was male for several years: https://lacroicsz.substack.com/p/by-any-other-name https://lacroicsz.substack.com/p/by-any-other-name
  - rendall 4y ago
    I think GP believes that race and orientation is mutable, and so agrees that gender identity is, as well. At least, it's how I read that.
    - skelpie_6000 4y ago
      Thanks, I think you're right, I'd misread what they said.
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > I think GP believes that race and orientation is mutable Not particularly. Race and gender are social constructs, and ones identity (and orientation, in the latter case) with regard to either is formed early – and, once formed, immutable or nearly so – as a product of innate traits interacting with socialization around the construct. (The fact that gender identity can diverge from socially ascribed gender, resulting in demands to alter the latter to conform with the former, does not make gender identity mutable, in much the same way that the fact that people might mistake your race for a different one than your indentity doesn’t make racial identity mutable.)
      - skelpie_6000 4y ago
        I'll reiterate my previous comment then: the existence of detransitioners proves that gender identity is mutable. From reading the accounts of detransitioners, gender identity seems to be more like a political or religious belief than anything else - often stable for long periods of time, but given the right circumstances, can be changed.

dragonwriter 4y ago

> Race and orientation is an immutable characteristic of the person. That is no more true that it is of gender identity. > As yet, gender dysmorphia is recognized as a mental illness So was homosexuality (also, you’ve confused dysphoria with dysmorphia. Also also, the diagnosable condition of gender dysphoria is not the same thing as having transgender identity; they are distinct.) > which requires therapy, hormones and surgery to accommodate or treat. People often get therapy, hormonal treatments, and surgery to deal with the failure of their body to conform to their image of their gender assigned at birth, but we don't call the need for these things a “mental illness” or gatekeep access to gender affirming treatments aligned with gender assigned at birth on distress reaching the dangerous levels that would be diagnosable as a mental illness.

rendall 4y ago
I don't think you have argued very well, here. Just minimally addressed some points, ignored others. >> Race and orientation is an immutable characteristic of the person. > That is no more true that it is of gender identity. Not an argument. Clever rejoinders will not convince people that mentally ill men should be in women's prisons or sports teams. You will have to actually engage with the concerns that people have. How do you deal with self-identification and predatory men going into women's locker rooms? Just denying that it could ever happen is not going to work. >> As yet, gender dysmorphia is recognized as a mental illness > So was homosexuality Not an argument. Declassifying homosexuality as a mental illness does not mean gender dysphoria is not. As for the rest, we literally do call that behavior mental illness. I'm fine with people doing whatever they want with their own bodies as long as their behavior doesn't impact other people. Taking female hormones, great. Taking female hormones and then insisting that everyone else perceive them as women is not.
skelpie_6000 4y ago
> > Race and orientation is an immutable characteristic of the person. > That is no more true that it is of gender identity. Some people detransition, i.e. their gender identity changes back to match their sex. This demonstrates that gender identity is not immutable. For example, here's a fascinating piece by a recent detransitioner, about how, and why, her gender identity was male for several years: https://lacroicsz.substack.com/p/by-any-other-name https://lacroicsz.substack.com/p/by-any-other-name
- rendall 4y ago
  I think GP believes that race and orientation is mutable, and so agrees that gender identity is, as well. At least, it's how I read that.
  - skelpie_6000 4y ago
    Thanks, I think you're right, I'd misread what they said.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > I think GP believes that race and orientation is mutable Not particularly. Race and gender are social constructs, and ones identity (and orientation, in the latter case) with regard to either is formed early – and, once formed, immutable or nearly so – as a product of innate traits interacting with socialization around the construct. (The fact that gender identity can diverge from socially ascribed gender, resulting in demands to alter the latter to conform with the former, does not make gender identity mutable, in much the same way that the fact that people might mistake your race for a different one than your indentity doesn’t make racial identity mutable.)
    - skelpie_6000 4y ago
      I'll reiterate my previous comment then: the existence of detransitioners proves that gender identity is mutable. From reading the accounts of detransitioners, gender identity seems to be more like a political or religious belief than anything else - often stable for long periods of time, but given the right circumstances, can be changed.