3 ms·

Darwin is incredibly poorly optimized for server workloads, and it would require a lot of developer resources in the wrong part of Apple. OS dev is all on the '

Darwin is incredibly poorly optimized for server workloads, and it would require a lot of developer resources in the wrong part of Apple. OS dev is all on the 'product' side, under Craig, the part that ships hardware -- Services, under Eddie, are where the server workloads are needed and the two orgs' reporting chains meet at Tim. This is also why Swift on Linux is kind of a (well-intentioned) afterthought that no one is really using on the server side even at Apple, since devtools is also under product. Server workloads are almost universally run on RHEL of some variety, presumably because (as sibling post mentions) of long term support contracts.

pabs3 4y ago
So nothing on Apple servers is written in Swift, interesting. I guess that is because Swift is aimed at replacing ObjC in the app programming space.
- stormbrew 4y ago
  I should clarify: I didn't mean to say nothing[1], but it's certainly not common. The vast majority of server stuff at Apple is written in Java (which goes way back), with Go becoming more and more common and some Rust popping in around the lower level stuff. I'm sure there's some Swift in there somewhere but it wasn't anywhere I could see while I worked there. Ironically, I was involved in the effort to port swift to linux so you'd think I'd know. The team I was on eventually moved most of our work to Rust (it was, also unusual for apple, written in C before). [1] And anyone who would ever come into HN and tell you anything about what goes on inside apple could never tell you anything with that level of certainty because even in Services where things are generally more open, stuff is still very siloed and fragmented and no one has a complete picture of what's out there.
  - barefeg 4y ago
    > even in Services where things are generally more open, stuff is still very siloed and fragmented and no one has a complete picture of what's out there Not even Eddie?
    - WastingMyTime89 4y ago
      He probably has a very good macro-view of things but unless it’s strategically relevant to what his part of the org is doing I don’t think he cares about what languages are used and what runs on the servers.
    - stormbrew 4y ago
      Aside from what the sibling reply said (which is definitely true), he also can’t really come post on HN about it. But i suppose if he made a top down order to enumerate things he might get a good idea. But Apple is just.. kinda weird. Things can be a secret even to the reporting chain above the people working on them. Certainly the specific tech being used can be closely guarded. And then there are just several different infrastructure systems things are on, with varying degrees of openness, and most of them designed to resist tampering or unplanned inspection.

pabs3 4y ago

So nothing on Apple servers is written in Swift, interesting. I guess that is because Swift is aimed at replacing ObjC in the app programming space.

stormbrew 4y ago
I should clarify: I didn't mean to say nothing[1], but it's certainly not common. The vast majority of server stuff at Apple is written in Java (which goes way back), with Go becoming more and more common and some Rust popping in around the lower level stuff. I'm sure there's some Swift in there somewhere but it wasn't anywhere I could see while I worked there. Ironically, I was involved in the effort to port swift to linux so you'd think I'd know. The team I was on eventually moved most of our work to Rust (it was, also unusual for apple, written in C before). [1] And anyone who would ever come into HN and tell you anything about what goes on inside apple could never tell you anything with that level of certainty because even in Services where things are generally more open, stuff is still very siloed and fragmented and no one has a complete picture of what's out there.
- barefeg 4y ago
  > even in Services where things are generally more open, stuff is still very siloed and fragmented and no one has a complete picture of what's out there Not even Eddie?
  - WastingMyTime89 4y ago
    He probably has a very good macro-view of things but unless it’s strategically relevant to what his part of the org is doing I don’t think he cares about what languages are used and what runs on the servers.
  - stormbrew 4y ago
    Aside from what the sibling reply said (which is definitely true), he also can’t really come post on HN about it. But i suppose if he made a top down order to enumerate things he might get a good idea. But Apple is just.. kinda weird. Things can be a secret even to the reporting chain above the people working on them. Certainly the specific tech being used can be closely guarded. And then there are just several different infrastructure systems things are on, with varying degrees of openness, and most of them designed to resist tampering or unplanned inspection.