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> This is just a terrible, terrible argument, that leads to a continual ratcheting up and broadening of the definition of "transphobia". > Transphobia should m

> This is just a terrible, terrible argument, that leads to a continual ratcheting up and broadening of the definition of "transphobia". > Transphobia should mean only "fear or hatred of trans people". > What it comes to mean, however: questioning self-identification, questioning trans women in women's sports, questioning trans women in women's spaces, questioning the use of puberty blockers in young children, among others. With these now defined as transphobia, it is no longer necessary to acknowledge any principled, genuine objections or concerns there, because even raising these topics is transphobic (or TERF) by definition. The sad thing here is, a frank discussion might indeed allow trans women and bio women to come to some accommodation, but insisting that some people are the only ones who can define certain words like transphobia elides those conversations. > No. Words matter and words belong to us all, not only to those who decide If you're opposing transgender people's attempts to secure rights that they are attempting to secure, why should you not be labelled as "transphobic" just because you personally feel that they might be able to get some more limited set if rights that you, as a cis person, are willing to give them? It's like complaining that people are calling you "racist" for supporting segregation even though you personally feel that segregation is best for black people and therefore you aren't opposing equal rights.

grrraal 4y ago
rendall 4y ago
> rights that you, as a cis person, are willing to give them? The problem with these particular "rights" is that they are not actually rights, but impositions on the rights of others. It's disingenuous to compare being trans to race or being gay. Race and orientation is an immutable characteristic of the person. As yet, gender dysmorphia is recognized as a mental illness, which requires therapy, hormones and surgery to accommodate or treat. Arguments about these particular trans rights can also apply to, for example, the rights of schizophrenics to have their delusions indulged by everyone else. With self-identification, the problem of "rights" becomes even more intractable, because unlike race or orientation, one can just declare oneself "trans" and thereby gain access to, say, physically weaker athletic opponents. Or to more vulnerable sexual prey, in the case of prisons.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > Race and orientation is an immutable characteristic of the person. That is no more true that it is of gender identity. > As yet, gender dysmorphia is recognized as a mental illness So was homosexuality (also, you’ve confused dysphoria with dysmorphia. Also also, the diagnosable condition of gender dysphoria is not the same thing as having transgender identity; they are distinct.) > which requires therapy, hormones and surgery to accommodate or treat. People often get therapy, hormonal treatments, and surgery to deal with the failure of their body to conform to their image of their gender assigned at birth, but we don't call the need for these things a “mental illness” or gatekeep access to gender affirming treatments aligned with gender assigned at birth on distress reaching the dangerous levels that would be diagnosable as a mental illness.
  - rendall 4y ago
    I don't think you have argued very well, here. Just minimally addressed some points, ignored others. >> Race and orientation is an immutable characteristic of the person. > That is no more true that it is of gender identity. Not an argument. Clever rejoinders will not convince people that mentally ill men should be in women's prisons or sports teams. You will have to actually engage with the concerns that people have. How do you deal with self-identification and predatory men going into women's locker rooms? Just denying that it could ever happen is not going to work. >> As yet, gender dysmorphia is recognized as a mental illness > So was homosexuality Not an argument. Declassifying homosexuality as a mental illness does not mean gender dysphoria is not. As for the rest, we literally do call that behavior mental illness. I'm fine with people doing whatever they want with their own bodies as long as their behavior doesn't impact other people. Taking female hormones, great. Taking female hormones and then insisting that everyone else perceive them as women is not.
  - skelpie_6000 4y ago
    > > Race and orientation is an immutable characteristic of the person. > That is no more true that it is of gender identity. Some people detransition, i.e. their gender identity changes back to match their sex. This demonstrates that gender identity is not immutable. For example, here's a fascinating piece by a recent detransitioner, about how, and why, her gender identity was male for several years: https://lacroicsz.substack.com/p/by-any-other-name https://lacroicsz.substack.com/p/by-any-other-name

grrraal 4y ago

rendall 4y ago

> rights that you, as a cis person, are willing to give them? The problem with these particular "rights" is that they are not actually rights, but impositions on the rights of others. It's disingenuous to compare being trans to race or being gay. Race and orientation is an immutable characteristic of the person. As yet, gender dysmorphia is recognized as a mental illness, which requires therapy, hormones and surgery to accommodate or treat. Arguments about these particular trans rights can also apply to, for example, the rights of schizophrenics to have their delusions indulged by everyone else. With self-identification, the problem of "rights" becomes even more intractable, because unlike race or orientation, one can just declare oneself "trans" and thereby gain access to, say, physically weaker athletic opponents. Or to more vulnerable sexual prey, in the case of prisons.

dragonwriter 4y ago
> Race and orientation is an immutable characteristic of the person. That is no more true that it is of gender identity. > As yet, gender dysmorphia is recognized as a mental illness So was homosexuality (also, you’ve confused dysphoria with dysmorphia. Also also, the diagnosable condition of gender dysphoria is not the same thing as having transgender identity; they are distinct.) > which requires therapy, hormones and surgery to accommodate or treat. People often get therapy, hormonal treatments, and surgery to deal with the failure of their body to conform to their image of their gender assigned at birth, but we don't call the need for these things a “mental illness” or gatekeep access to gender affirming treatments aligned with gender assigned at birth on distress reaching the dangerous levels that would be diagnosable as a mental illness.
- rendall 4y ago
  I don't think you have argued very well, here. Just minimally addressed some points, ignored others. >> Race and orientation is an immutable characteristic of the person. > That is no more true that it is of gender identity. Not an argument. Clever rejoinders will not convince people that mentally ill men should be in women's prisons or sports teams. You will have to actually engage with the concerns that people have. How do you deal with self-identification and predatory men going into women's locker rooms? Just denying that it could ever happen is not going to work. >> As yet, gender dysmorphia is recognized as a mental illness > So was homosexuality Not an argument. Declassifying homosexuality as a mental illness does not mean gender dysphoria is not. As for the rest, we literally do call that behavior mental illness. I'm fine with people doing whatever they want with their own bodies as long as their behavior doesn't impact other people. Taking female hormones, great. Taking female hormones and then insisting that everyone else perceive them as women is not.
- skelpie_6000 4y ago
  > > Race and orientation is an immutable characteristic of the person. > That is no more true that it is of gender identity. Some people detransition, i.e. their gender identity changes back to match their sex. This demonstrates that gender identity is not immutable. For example, here's a fascinating piece by a recent detransitioner, about how, and why, her gender identity was male for several years: https://lacroicsz.substack.com/p/by-any-other-name https://lacroicsz.substack.com/p/by-any-other-name