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> I felt safe and drivers were respectful and patient when passing. A large part of this, from what I've observed living in Canada and the Netherlands, is the

> I felt safe and drivers were respectful and patient when passing. A large part of this, from what I've observed living in Canada and the Netherlands, is the different perspectives borne out of each culture. In the Netherlands, everyone grows up having been a bicycle commuter. It's how every child gets to school. So everyone has been a bicycle commuter for at least some period of their lives and can sympathize with other bicycle commuter. In Canada, it's less common for children to ride bicycles to school. Busses are far more common or parents dropping off their kids at the kiss-n-ride. When kids do ride bicycles, it's for sport. So if a Canadian driver sees a person riding a bicycle, he or she does not see that person as an equal; someone who is also using the road to commute. They tend to see the bicycle commuter as someone who is intruding on their space, using the road (which is for commuting) for sport. And there is some small proportion of self-appointed citizen police who will decide to "teach them a lesson", much like you have with drivers who go about break-checking. It does not take many of those experiences to instill a sense of terror for those who try to commute by bicycle. Additionally, in the Netherlands people who drive to work still frequently ride their bicycles to run errands. Need a carton of volle melk from the Albert Heijn or Jumbo? Just hop on your bicycle and ride 5 minutes. In the Netherlands there are very few food deserts [0] and small, well-stocked grocery stores are close at hand for every neighbourhood. That's often impractical in Canada, where we have shifted to large RC Superstores and Walmart "Supercentres", often located distant to residential neighbourhoods, often located along stroads which are inhospitable to anyone but car drivers. In the Netherlands, it's much easier to think, "well, that could be me tomorrow", when driving past a bicycle commuter. In Canada, car drivers see the bicycle commuter as an invader or alien species, "the cyclist", whom is different and perhaps even unwelcome. In Canada, I feel lucky if the car drivers just tolerate my presence on the road; In the Netherlands I felt seen as an equal. [0] : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_desert https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_desert

Beltalowda 4y ago
I lived in the Netherlands, England, Ireland, and New Zealand; England and Ireland are not "bike countries" either, but for the most part it was actually pretty okay cycling in the city: there are enough cyclists around, roads are small, and most people understand that the limited space needs to be shared. New Zealand, however, was a different story. The roads are huge, US-style, and a significant number of cyclists think that the road is for them and them only which, given the design, is not even entirely invalid as such. You get aggressive drivers everywhere (including NL), but the incidence in NZ was far more often than anywhere else. I think the mandatory helmet laws aren't helping either: it instils the impression that you're doing something inherently dangerous on a space not intended for you. Actually the most careful (car) drivers I've seen was in Indonesia, where roads are for scooters first and cars second.
- murphyslab 4y ago
  > I think the mandatory helmet laws aren't helping either: it instils the impression that you're doing something inherently dangerous on a space not intended for you. Oddly, the use of helmets may alter the perceptions of drivers opposite to what you suggest. There have been a couple studies showing that drivers, when seeing a bicycle commuter wearing a helmet, give that bicycle rider *less* room upon passing, compared to a bicycle rider who is not wearing a helmet. There's a good summary of the observed effect which also provides links to the published research: https://www.bicycling.com/news/a25358099/drivers-give-helmet-cyclists-less-room/ https://www.bicycling.com/news/a25358099/drivers-give-helmet...
  - Beltalowda 4y ago
    > the use of helmets may alter the perceptions of drivers opposite to what you suggest I think both can be true: 1. "cyclists are better protected, so less need to be careful" 2. "cyclists are engaging in something dangerous and unusual because they need to wear a helmet". I looked at this a few years ago, and I found most studies on the topic inconclusive, some studies with contradicting results, etc. so in general I'm a bit hesitant citing studies on the topic.
htkibar 4y ago
Important to also note, when something exists commonly on streets, it ends up being expected. When a bike is a random occasion, you don’t drive expecting one on every corner. Even if you hate it. This can create an interesting type of blindness to it (your brain just doesn’t register it[0]). Even if nothing changed in terms of people’’ feelings, this would be beneficial as well (which I presume, is much more common than people wanting to punish them). [0]: https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/motr/motorcycles-are-missed-because-drivers-arent-looking-for-them.html https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/motr/motorcycles-a...
- cowmoo728 4y ago
  I've also noticed in the US that people have a built in idea of how fast a bicycle goes - roughly 20-25 km/h, the speed that the middle school and high school students go while biking to class. I can often reach 40 km/h on my road bike, but I have to pre-emptively brake as soon as someone starts a right turn or is about to pull into the road. Because they see a cyclist, assume I'm going 20 km/h, and pull out directly in my path even though I would have smashed straight into the side of their car if I had not defensively braked. It's like their brain just shuts off estimating speed and distance as soon as they see a bicycle, it's very interesting.
  - htkibar 4y ago
    Expectations play an interesting part for sure. To draw a parallel, this is why in the Netherlands at the moment e-bikes are scary as hell - because they are faster than the expected speed of a bike; it is harder to notice / react.

Beltalowda 4y ago

I lived in the Netherlands, England, Ireland, and New Zealand; England and Ireland are not "bike countries" either, but for the most part it was actually pretty okay cycling in the city: there are enough cyclists around, roads are small, and most people understand that the limited space needs to be shared. New Zealand, however, was a different story. The roads are huge, US-style, and a significant number of cyclists think that the road is for them and them only which, given the design, is not even entirely invalid as such. You get aggressive drivers everywhere (including NL), but the incidence in NZ was far more often than anywhere else. I think the mandatory helmet laws aren't helping either: it instils the impression that you're doing something inherently dangerous on a space not intended for you. Actually the most careful (car) drivers I've seen was in Indonesia, where roads are for scooters first and cars second.

murphyslab 4y ago
> I think the mandatory helmet laws aren't helping either: it instils the impression that you're doing something inherently dangerous on a space not intended for you. Oddly, the use of helmets may alter the perceptions of drivers opposite to what you suggest. There have been a couple studies showing that drivers, when seeing a bicycle commuter wearing a helmet, give that bicycle rider *less* room upon passing, compared to a bicycle rider who is not wearing a helmet. There's a good summary of the observed effect which also provides links to the published research: https://www.bicycling.com/news/a25358099/drivers-give-helmet-cyclists-less-room/ https://www.bicycling.com/news/a25358099/drivers-give-helmet...
- Beltalowda 4y ago
  > the use of helmets may alter the perceptions of drivers opposite to what you suggest I think both can be true: 1. "cyclists are better protected, so less need to be careful" 2. "cyclists are engaging in something dangerous and unusual because they need to wear a helmet". I looked at this a few years ago, and I found most studies on the topic inconclusive, some studies with contradicting results, etc. so in general I'm a bit hesitant citing studies on the topic.

htkibar 4y ago

Important to also note, when something exists commonly on streets, it ends up being expected. When a bike is a random occasion, you don’t drive expecting one on every corner. Even if you hate it. This can create an interesting type of blindness to it (your brain just doesn’t register it[0]). Even if nothing changed in terms of people’’ feelings, this would be beneficial as well (which I presume, is much more common than people wanting to punish them). [0]: https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/motr/motorcycles-are-missed-because-drivers-arent-looking-for-them.html https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/motr/motorcycles-a...

cowmoo728 4y ago
I've also noticed in the US that people have a built in idea of how fast a bicycle goes - roughly 20-25 km/h, the speed that the middle school and high school students go while biking to class. I can often reach 40 km/h on my road bike, but I have to pre-emptively brake as soon as someone starts a right turn or is about to pull into the road. Because they see a cyclist, assume I'm going 20 km/h, and pull out directly in my path even though I would have smashed straight into the side of their car if I had not defensively braked. It's like their brain just shuts off estimating speed and distance as soon as they see a bicycle, it's very interesting.
- htkibar 4y ago
  Expectations play an interesting part for sure. To draw a parallel, this is why in the Netherlands at the moment e-bikes are scary as hell - because they are faster than the expected speed of a bike; it is harder to notice / react.