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>So while you might think formula from Germany or The Netherlands is safe enough for your child (formula available in Europe tends to meet or exceed the FDA's n

by daenz 4y ago

>So while you might think formula from Germany or The Netherlands is safe enough for your child (formula available in Europe tends to meet or exceed the FDA's nutritional requirements, but not the labeling requirements.) the FDA will not let you have it because it has not reviewed and approved the label or inspected the production facilities overseas. Reasonable people can debate whether this is a reasonable policy in normal times, but in the current mess this sort of rule undermines the health and development of the infants the FDA purports to protect. Is this even a debate about whether or not it is a reasonable policy? Why would you allow uninspected products to feed your most vulnerable population? Now, I understand the nuance of "well we're in a shortage, so we should allow it temporarily." But think about it from a security perspective: you'd still be exposing babies to uninspected food products. Any America-hating entity could capitalize on this attack vector, if they knew we would bypass our security controls. Is it likely? I don't know, but I do know that suspending your security in response to a crisis is dangerous.

sacrosancty 4y ago
What does "inspected" mean to you in this context that makes it so obvious that it's essential? And essential for Americans but not Germans??
- daenz 4y ago
  I'm not sure I understand your question, can you rephrase it please?
  - dcolkitt 4y ago
    Germany clearly inspected the formula. Clearly baby formula imported from Germany is still inspected. The only distinction is it's inspected by Germany instead of American inspectors. This would be as insane as Florida insisting that baby formula can only be sold in Florida if it was inspected in Florida. Baby formula inspected in New York cannot be sold, even though it was inspected.
    - comrh 4y ago
      Florida and New York have come together and agreed on labeling and inspection. There's nothing stopping the US and Germany from doing the same.
      - dcolkitt 4y ago
        > There's nothing stopping the US and Germany from doing the same. Great. So we should do that, right? You agree that Biden should sign an executive order saying any infant formula approved by the EU is legal to sell in the United States.
        joshuamorton 4y ago
        Should we do the same for other nations? Is Chinese baby formula safe? If not, by what metric do we decide which nations' formula is sufficiently safe?
        comrh 4y ago
        I would support standardizing labeling and inspection requirements with the EU. I don't support more half measure executive orders that expand the executive branch's power because Congress is too broken to do anything... but I digress.
      - ggreer 4y ago
        Florida & New York “agree” because they’re both governed by the FDA. Even if a state wanted to import German baby formula, the federal government would not allow it.
aiisahik 4y ago
Why would european formula need to be inspected by US officials if it was good enough for the European parents? Shouldn't parents be able to make their own decisions here rather than be beholden by government rules?
- devman0 4y ago
  21 USC 350a is probably why, there are requirements for audits and inspections in there that the FDA cannot just set aside with an emergency rule making process since they are statutory.
- daenz 4y ago
  >if it was good enough for the European parents That's an assumption based on the fact that it isn't inspected. You don't know that you're getting the same product if you don't inspect the facilities where the product is produced. That's trusting, but not verifying. You need to verify something like this. >Shouldn't parents be able to make their own decisions here rather than be beholden by government rules? Domestically yes, but importing foreign uninspected baby products is a national security issue.
- macspoofing 4y ago
  >Why would european formula need to be inspected by US officials if it was good enough for the European parents? Because that's how things work?? The default position for any government regulatory body is to not delegate its authority to regulate to a counterpart in another region/country. Sometimes there are bilateral agreements where each regulatory body recognizes the judgments of the other, but those are few and far between. American chicken is perfectly safe to consume, but you would not be allowed to sell it in the European market.
  - pdonis 4y ago
    > Because that's how things work?? You misspelled "because the US has stupid regulations that are more concerned with covering the asses of the regulators than with actually protecting consumers". > American chicken is perfectly safe to consume, but you would not be allowed to sell it in the European market. As I understand it, the reason US chicken is not saleable in European markets is that European countries do not agree that US chicken is "perfectly safe to consume" because of the way it is produced (IIRC chemical washing in the US was a key issue). There is no such disagreement about the infant formula that is the subject of this article; the FDA is not saying it's not safe, just that it's not labeled the way the FDA wants it to be labeled--even though everybody knows it meets safety standards at least as stringent as the FDAs and nobody needs the labels to tell them that.
throwawayboise 4y ago
Yes, and there is a history of unscrupulous producers putting all kinds of garbage into infant formula. Who is going to complain? Not the babies. That's why it is one of the most regulated food products. It's almost like a pharmaceutical product. And which countries are safe enough? Germany? UK? France? Probably. Estonia? Romania? Hungary? Do we really think that there are uniform standards and inspections in all these places?
- dcolkitt 4y ago
  > Do we really think that there are uniform standards and inspections in all these places? Yes, there are. https://ec.europa.eu/food/safety/labelling-and-nutrition/specific-groups/food-infants-and-young-children_en https://ec.europa.eu/food/safety/labelling-and-nutrition/spe...
- jotm 4y ago
  Everything made in China is cheap garbage /s
  - mardifoufs 4y ago
    Everything? No. Milk that I'd feed my baby? I wouldn't risk it, considering China has had multiple scandals around tainted powdered milk.
- willmadden 4y ago
  From China and countries where there is no recourse, not from Europe.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
dahfizz 4y ago
It seems perfectly reasonable to set up some sort of FDA trade alliance. We decide we trust the European standards bodies for products X,Y,Z, and they trust out standards. You don't have to take a driver's test in every state when driving across country. We have a precedent for intra government reciprocal licensing.
raverbashing 4y ago
Cool, then inspect batches and allow them in depending on the results. It should be doable. Inspecting facilities makes sense if you want to import continuously without much worry. Still, that should also be doable given enough time.
Vladimof 4y ago
They don't inspect most foods though... look at all the mislabeled fish in grocery stores and worst, restaurants... https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/07/health/fish-mislabeling-investigation-oceana/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/07/health/fish-mislabeling-inves...
rhino369 4y ago
Because German inspectors aren't appreciably worse than US inspectors? (and probably more stringent). If you took your baby on vacation, you wouldn't starve them until you got back right?!? Same logic here.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- throwawayboise 4y ago
  Well, the one time I traveled to Europe with an infant, I brought enough formula along for the duration of the trip. Not so much because I didn't trust what would be available locally, but because I knew there were no issues with the formula we were using and didn't want to deal with potential digestive upset or worse on the trip.
  - rhino369 4y ago
    But if it spilled or something, you'd just go to the store. You wouldn't fly home.
TameAntelope 4y ago
Yeah, it blows my mind the whole general push of, "Parents know best". Hell no they don't! They're not experts on anything, how in the everloving fuck would any parent be qualified to determine if a specific formula brand is "good enough" for their child? I would bet 90%+ of parents could not tell apart formula from formula cut with 10% fentanyl. Parents do not know best.
yes_really 4y ago
> Is this even a debate about whether or not it is a reasonable policy? Why would you allow uninspected products to feed your most vulnerable population? They are inspected products. They are inspected by an European country. > Any America-hating entity could capitalize on this attack vector, if they knew we would bypass our security controls. Is it likely? I don't know, but I do know that suspending your security in response to a crisis is dangerous. It is not likely at all. The chance of e.g. the UK/France/Germany attacking the US via formula is close to 0%.

by daenz 4y ago

sacrosancty 4y ago

What does "inspected" mean to you in this context that makes it so obvious that it's essential? And essential for Americans but not Germans??

daenz 4y ago
I'm not sure I understand your question, can you rephrase it please?
- dcolkitt 4y ago
  Germany clearly inspected the formula. Clearly baby formula imported from Germany is still inspected. The only distinction is it's inspected by Germany instead of American inspectors. This would be as insane as Florida insisting that baby formula can only be sold in Florida if it was inspected in Florida. Baby formula inspected in New York cannot be sold, even though it was inspected.
  - comrh 4y ago
    Florida and New York have come together and agreed on labeling and inspection. There's nothing stopping the US and Germany from doing the same.
    - dcolkitt 4y ago
      > There's nothing stopping the US and Germany from doing the same. Great. So we should do that, right? You agree that Biden should sign an executive order saying any infant formula approved by the EU is legal to sell in the United States.
      - joshuamorton 4y ago
        Should we do the same for other nations? Is Chinese baby formula safe? If not, by what metric do we decide which nations' formula is sufficiently safe?
      - comrh 4y ago
        I would support standardizing labeling and inspection requirements with the EU. I don't support more half measure executive orders that expand the executive branch's power because Congress is too broken to do anything... but I digress.
    - ggreer 4y ago
      Florida & New York “agree” because they’re both governed by the FDA. Even if a state wanted to import German baby formula, the federal government would not allow it.

aiisahik 4y ago

Why would european formula need to be inspected by US officials if it was good enough for the European parents? Shouldn't parents be able to make their own decisions here rather than be beholden by government rules?

devman0 4y ago
21 USC 350a is probably why, there are requirements for audits and inspections in there that the FDA cannot just set aside with an emergency rule making process since they are statutory.
daenz 4y ago
>if it was good enough for the European parents That's an assumption based on the fact that it isn't inspected. You don't know that you're getting the same product if you don't inspect the facilities where the product is produced. That's trusting, but not verifying. You need to verify something like this. >Shouldn't parents be able to make their own decisions here rather than be beholden by government rules? Domestically yes, but importing foreign uninspected baby products is a national security issue.
macspoofing 4y ago
>Why would european formula need to be inspected by US officials if it was good enough for the European parents? Because that's how things work?? The default position for any government regulatory body is to not delegate its authority to regulate to a counterpart in another region/country. Sometimes there are bilateral agreements where each regulatory body recognizes the judgments of the other, but those are few and far between. American chicken is perfectly safe to consume, but you would not be allowed to sell it in the European market.
- pdonis 4y ago
  > Because that's how things work?? You misspelled "because the US has stupid regulations that are more concerned with covering the asses of the regulators than with actually protecting consumers". > American chicken is perfectly safe to consume, but you would not be allowed to sell it in the European market. As I understand it, the reason US chicken is not saleable in European markets is that European countries do not agree that US chicken is "perfectly safe to consume" because of the way it is produced (IIRC chemical washing in the US was a key issue). There is no such disagreement about the infant formula that is the subject of this article; the FDA is not saying it's not safe, just that it's not labeled the way the FDA wants it to be labeled--even though everybody knows it meets safety standards at least as stringent as the FDAs and nobody needs the labels to tell them that.

throwawayboise 4y ago

Yes, and there is a history of unscrupulous producers putting all kinds of garbage into infant formula. Who is going to complain? Not the babies. That's why it is one of the most regulated food products. It's almost like a pharmaceutical product. And which countries are safe enough? Germany? UK? France? Probably. Estonia? Romania? Hungary? Do we really think that there are uniform standards and inspections in all these places?

dcolkitt 4y ago
> Do we really think that there are uniform standards and inspections in all these places? Yes, there are. https://ec.europa.eu/food/safety/labelling-and-nutrition/specific-groups/food-infants-and-young-children_en https://ec.europa.eu/food/safety/labelling-and-nutrition/spe...
jotm 4y ago
Everything made in China is cheap garbage /s
- mardifoufs 4y ago
  Everything? No. Milk that I'd feed my baby? I wouldn't risk it, considering China has had multiple scandals around tainted powdered milk.
willmadden 4y ago
From China and countries where there is no recourse, not from Europe.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

dahfizz 4y ago

It seems perfectly reasonable to set up some sort of FDA trade alliance. We decide we trust the European standards bodies for products X,Y,Z, and they trust out standards. You don't have to take a driver's test in every state when driving across country. We have a precedent for intra government reciprocal licensing.

raverbashing 4y ago

Cool, then inspect batches and allow them in depending on the results. It should be doable. Inspecting facilities makes sense if you want to import continuously without much worry. Still, that should also be doable given enough time.

Vladimof 4y ago

They don't inspect most foods though... look at all the mislabeled fish in grocery stores and worst, restaurants... https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/07/health/fish-mislabeling-investigation-oceana/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/07/health/fish-mislabeling-inves...

rhino369 4y ago

Because German inspectors aren't appreciably worse than US inspectors? (and probably more stringent). If you took your baby on vacation, you wouldn't starve them until you got back right?!? Same logic here.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
throwawayboise 4y ago
Well, the one time I traveled to Europe with an infant, I brought enough formula along for the duration of the trip. Not so much because I didn't trust what would be available locally, but because I knew there were no issues with the formula we were using and didn't want to deal with potential digestive upset or worse on the trip.
- rhino369 4y ago
  But if it spilled or something, you'd just go to the store. You wouldn't fly home.

TameAntelope 4y ago

Yeah, it blows my mind the whole general push of, "Parents know best". Hell no they don't! They're not experts on anything, how in the everloving fuck would any parent be qualified to determine if a specific formula brand is "good enough" for their child? I would bet 90%+ of parents could not tell apart formula from formula cut with 10% fentanyl. Parents do not know best.

yes_really 4y ago

> Is this even a debate about whether or not it is a reasonable policy? Why would you allow uninspected products to feed your most vulnerable population? They are inspected products. They are inspected by an European country. > Any America-hating entity could capitalize on this attack vector, if they knew we would bypass our security controls. Is it likely? I don't know, but I do know that suspending your security in response to a crisis is dangerous. It is not likely at all. The chance of e.g. the UK/France/Germany attacking the US via formula is close to 0%.