4 ms·

Why would you be opposed to individuals choosing to live as they will? Suppose I was trans, why would you be scared of or hate me knowing nothing else? I’m not

by ok_dad 4y ago

Why would you be opposed to individuals choosing to live as they will? Suppose I was trans, why would you be scared of or hate me knowing nothing else? I’m not trans, but I don’t get the hate, trans people literally don’t affect you a bit.

zionic 4y ago
- ok_dad 4y ago
  Have you watched 4k surgery videos of other surgeries? Do they make you repulsed as well? You seem to have some deep seated issues with being disgusted with something that isn’t any of your business. Why should you care how horrible it looks to surgically change sexes? Isn’t that between the individual and their surgical doctors? I’m pretty disgusted by you right now and I don’t even need to see 4k video of you.
  - zionic 4y ago
otde 4y ago
The sibling comment actually does a pretty good job articulating why we as trans people (surprise! I’m one of them) receive the reactions we do. It’s a fundamental disgust at the concept of a trans person existing, full stop. In an ideal world for these people, we simply would not exist. We challenge their expectations by asking to be addressed in a way that goes against their ideas of what gender, at its core, means to them. It’s a belief that the world works in a specific and rigid way, and that respecting the way another person chooses to be addressed is “feeding into a delusion.” This also feeds into a larger bit of discourse around trans kids that is tinged with the usual “think of the children” moral panics that show up whenever a kid is some flavor of LGBTQ+. It does not make for a great time on the internet (or on Hacker News, specifically).
- ok_dad 4y ago
  Thanks, I appreciate that explanation, I never understood moral panic or things of that nature. To me, a persons sex is pretty arbitrary, something that shouldn’t affect how we look at the person inside that body.
- pdimitar 4y ago
  > We challenge their expectations by asking to be addressed in a way that goes against their ideas of what gender, at its core, means to them. Nope, you're asking for a special treatment in an environment where 99.9% of people don't care how you want to be called. Not because they hate you -- it's because they're not there to fight for your rights. My name has at least 12 different ways to be pronounced in my country -- most of them in a semi-mocking manner, too -- and at one point I simply stopped caring even if I didn't like being called as some people do. Felt like pissing against the wind and I figured I'm not going to waste my time arguing with people whose only goal is to tease. They give up literally seconds later when ignored. I feel that some trans people are just barking up the wrong tree at the wrong time. in a normal social setting -- say, in a restaurant, or a cafe in the park -- people are there to socialize or network. Not to fight the good fight against trans people being harmed. Of course I'm not even touching on the psychopaths who would pursue and physically harm you. I'm addressing the problem of people bringing the issues that are close to their hearts in a social setting where people don't care and are looking negatively at the idea of forcing that discussion right there and then. And I feel that point of view is very often missed by people who feel they have to fight for various social justice causes.
  - otde 4y ago
    > Nope, you're asking for a special treatment in an environment where 99.9% of people don't care how you want to be called. Not because they hate you -- it's because they're not there to fight for your rights. You are framing this as "special treatment" precisely because of your ideas of what gender means to you. Honestly, I empathize hard with what you describe as "pissing into the wind." I'm misgendered on a daily basis -- if I spent every ounce of energy I had correcting people, I'd end each day exhausted. More often than not, I don't push back, usually because it's a service worker who's forced to be deferential as part of their job ("sir"/"ma'am"/etc). I don't begrudge that kind of attempt at politeness. Even outside that, it's never a huge deal in isolation, but it adds up, because I have to do a little bit of mental calculus each time: is this person going to make a whole thing about it or go "my bad" and move on? do I have the energy to bring it up? are they trying to be rude or is it an honest mistake? etc. In professional and personal circles, I'm generally more likely to correct people, because I'm signalling a way to be polite to me, and I've been polite to them, and it's how we establish mutual respect, not "special treatment." Usually, when people get frustrated at misgendering, it's because a person is ignoring really obvious tells about how a person wants to be addressed (clothing, etc.) in favor of their own personal philosophy about what being "right" means. In the exact same way, for example, you might feel frustrated if someone intentionally decided to use a semi-mocking pronunciation of your name. In both cases, it signals that a person has decided to be cruel to you for petty and unknowable reasons. I guess my big takeaway is that you deserve as much dignity and respect in the way people pronounce your name as I do for my pronouns, and I hope you can find some understanding/empathy in the parallels between our experiences.

by ok_dad 4y ago

zionic 4y ago

ok_dad 4y ago
Have you watched 4k surgery videos of other surgeries? Do they make you repulsed as well? You seem to have some deep seated issues with being disgusted with something that isn’t any of your business. Why should you care how horrible it looks to surgically change sexes? Isn’t that between the individual and their surgical doctors? I’m pretty disgusted by you right now and I don’t even need to see 4k video of you.
- zionic 4y ago

otde 4y ago

The sibling comment actually does a pretty good job articulating why we as trans people (surprise! I’m one of them) receive the reactions we do. It’s a fundamental disgust at the concept of a trans person existing, full stop. In an ideal world for these people, we simply would not exist. We challenge their expectations by asking to be addressed in a way that goes against their ideas of what gender, at its core, means to them. It’s a belief that the world works in a specific and rigid way, and that respecting the way another person chooses to be addressed is “feeding into a delusion.” This also feeds into a larger bit of discourse around trans kids that is tinged with the usual “think of the children” moral panics that show up whenever a kid is some flavor of LGBTQ+. It does not make for a great time on the internet (or on Hacker News, specifically).

ok_dad 4y ago
Thanks, I appreciate that explanation, I never understood moral panic or things of that nature. To me, a persons sex is pretty arbitrary, something that shouldn’t affect how we look at the person inside that body.
pdimitar 4y ago
> We challenge their expectations by asking to be addressed in a way that goes against their ideas of what gender, at its core, means to them. Nope, you're asking for a special treatment in an environment where 99.9% of people don't care how you want to be called. Not because they hate you -- it's because they're not there to fight for your rights. My name has at least 12 different ways to be pronounced in my country -- most of them in a semi-mocking manner, too -- and at one point I simply stopped caring even if I didn't like being called as some people do. Felt like pissing against the wind and I figured I'm not going to waste my time arguing with people whose only goal is to tease. They give up literally seconds later when ignored. I feel that some trans people are just barking up the wrong tree at the wrong time. in a normal social setting -- say, in a restaurant, or a cafe in the park -- people are there to socialize or network. Not to fight the good fight against trans people being harmed. Of course I'm not even touching on the psychopaths who would pursue and physically harm you. I'm addressing the problem of people bringing the issues that are close to their hearts in a social setting where people don't care and are looking negatively at the idea of forcing that discussion right there and then. And I feel that point of view is very often missed by people who feel they have to fight for various social justice causes.
- otde 4y ago
  > Nope, you're asking for a special treatment in an environment where 99.9% of people don't care how you want to be called. Not because they hate you -- it's because they're not there to fight for your rights. You are framing this as "special treatment" precisely because of your ideas of what gender means to you. Honestly, I empathize hard with what you describe as "pissing into the wind." I'm misgendered on a daily basis -- if I spent every ounce of energy I had correcting people, I'd end each day exhausted. More often than not, I don't push back, usually because it's a service worker who's forced to be deferential as part of their job ("sir"/"ma'am"/etc). I don't begrudge that kind of attempt at politeness. Even outside that, it's never a huge deal in isolation, but it adds up, because I have to do a little bit of mental calculus each time: is this person going to make a whole thing about it or go "my bad" and move on? do I have the energy to bring it up? are they trying to be rude or is it an honest mistake? etc. In professional and personal circles, I'm generally more likely to correct people, because I'm signalling a way to be polite to me, and I've been polite to them, and it's how we establish mutual respect, not "special treatment." Usually, when people get frustrated at misgendering, it's because a person is ignoring really obvious tells about how a person wants to be addressed (clothing, etc.) in favor of their own personal philosophy about what being "right" means. In the exact same way, for example, you might feel frustrated if someone intentionally decided to use a semi-mocking pronunciation of your name. In both cases, it signals that a person has decided to be cruel to you for petty and unknowable reasons. I guess my big takeaway is that you deserve as much dignity and respect in the way people pronounce your name as I do for my pronouns, and I hope you can find some understanding/empathy in the parallels between our experiences.