5 ms·

The main point being raised by trans activists is "please let us live our lives and not be horrible to us". There's really not a whole lot more to it than that.

The main point being raised by trans activists is "please let us live our lives and not be horrible to us". There's really not a whole lot more to it than that. So if somebody's "pushing back" on that, I think it's pretty fair to call them transphobic.

zionic 4y ago
[flagged]
- thomasfedb 4y ago
  Given that you've clearly decided that trans activists have "delusions" I'm not sure there's much hope, however... - What changes to your language are they demanding? If you mean they ask you to refer to them in a particular way, then this is not an uncommon thing. People often ask to be referred to in a particular way. For example, most people don't like being called "fruitloop". - If what you mean by "anti-scientific ideas" is that that people exists who either a) are not conventionally male or female, or b) feel very strongly that their gender is not the one assigned to them at birth, then I would argue that these ideas are not anti-scientific at all. There is a huge amount of nuance in the science of human development that is left out in the "conventional" wisdom. I'm a non-binary person, a scientist, and a medical doctor. So I am obviously invested here on several fronts.
  - jchw 4y ago
    Hopefully it was accidental and not a sleight of hand, but I hope you realize you pivoted a statement about the trans activists being pushed back against (that they are “deluded”) to being about trans people as a whole. I feel like this kind of pivot happens so often in bad faith that people now do it subconsciously and not even necessarily in bad faith but simply out of habit. Similarly, (but not necessarily in the exact same vein,) there is an overarching sentiment that all trans people agree with the broader LGBT community, but it’s definitely not true.
    - thomasfedb 4y ago
      Fixed! Yep, that was a slightly uncharitable reading of the parent post I accept.
      - jchw 4y ago
        It seems like your uncharitable reading was the one that actually intended, which is unfortunate. I guess that’s the perils of assuming good faith. I do think it is good to be precise here, though. The human brain really seems to like viewing groups of people as hiveminds.
        thomasfedb 4y ago
        Totally agree. The charitable interpretation is the right one to make if you actually care about arguing the ideas. I'm sure my philosophy professor would be very upset with me.
    - zionic 4y ago
      - jchw 4y ago
        Did you mean to reply to me? I have not really made a statement about the actual topic because it is personally irrelevant to me. I just want people to argue in good faith, even if at this point a reasoned discussion seems impossible. (And just to be explicit, by that I mean, we’re probably not going to see eye to eye, so I’m probably not going to engage with your rhetoric. Sorry.)
  - zionic 4y ago
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - dahart 4y ago
      You are aware of the existence of physically intersex, hermaphroditic, and androgynous humans? Are you aware that trans identifying people frequently exhibit physiological characteristics, such as extremely low sperm count in born-male people? Are you aware of the existence of cultures that officially recognize multiple genders, like in Samoa, Mexico, India, & Chile? Your own example of race is telling, since race is not binary. What race should someone call themselves, if they have a father from Finland, a mother from Zimbabwe, and are born in Germany are a German citizen and only speak German? What are you scared of? Why are you offended enough by what gender someone else feels to call it delusions and lies? Is it a lie to call someone Nathan when they ask you to?
      - zionic 4y ago
        dahart 4y ago
        ok_dad 4y ago
- CharlesW 4y ago
  I remember when the first person I knew disclosed that they were trans. The pronoun thing was weird for a day or two. But it's no more a burden than using "they" with you since I don't know your gender. Calling trans people "delusional" is transphobic. If you don't think of yourself as intolerant, you're probably experiencing cognitive dissonance about the whole thing. If you're not homophobic, ask yourself why you're being so reactive about this. I grew up in a time when "fag" was tossed around very casually. When I realized that the use of that word hurt people, I stopped. These are not hills to die on.
  - zionic 4y ago
    - CharlesW 4y ago
- dang 4y ago
  If you keep using HN for hellish flamewar, we will ban you. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. More at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31389366 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31389366.
  - zionic 4y ago
    Does this apply equally to those promoting trans agendas in the comments? I ask because here we are, in a thread specifically about these kinds of issues, and you are threatening my account with termination for disagreeing. I don’t see any threats made to the people on the other side, despite posting incredibly divisive/controversial views. When you selectively moderate along ideological lines you harm the community. I could understand removing these types of posts from say, a technical update about AWS as it’s off topic. This post however is about social issues and the comments are about social issues. Perhaps you think that’s off topic for HN, so maybe remove the topic entirely?
    - dang 4y ago
      We don't ban accounts for disagreeing, but for breaking the site guidelines. Your account was the most flamewarrish one in the thread by a large margin. If you think I missed a worse offender, I'd be happy to take a look, but from what I saw your comments were the most aggressive (in both quality and quantity). If that's right, then you're in no position to point fingers at others. If you read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html, it isn't hard to see what would be ban-worthy about that. Not banning such accounts would be like not having a fire department.
chmod600 4y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy
- thomasfedb 4y ago
  If you're accusing me, be good enough to be specific.
  - chmod600 4y ago
    "please let us live our lives... not a lot more to it" But there is more to it. There are issues about women's sports, public education, the ethics of irreversible medical procedures on minors without an objective diagnosis, etc. You explicitly avoided the controversy, and it's not really fair to do that.
    - thomasfedb 4y ago
      I do really think that what most trans activists (and most trans people) want is "please let us live our lives". That said, I'm in Australia, and maybe things are really different wherever you are. Of course, "live our lives" includes trans kids being able to live their lives too, being safe at their school, etc. And trans people should be able to play sport if they like, it's a healthy thing to do. As far as social sport goes, I personally prefer mixed sport, but I think that the excitement over trans people playing in women's leagues is unnecessary. At the professional level, I can understand a need for a bit more precision, but my understanding is that the international sporting bodies have regulations and they (the sporting bodies) don't seem to think there's a big issue. As far as "irreversible medical procedures on minors" goes... (and this is the one that spurred me on to reply) ...it's just not a thing. And again, I'm in Australia, but I'm pretty sure this applies globally. To my knowledge, we simply do not perform reassignment surgery on children. The WPATH (World Professional Association for Transgender Health) guidelines (available here: https://www.wpath.org/media/cms/Documents/SOC%20v7/SOC%20V7_English2012.pdf?_t=1613669341 https://www.wpath.org/media/cms/Documents/SOC%20v7/SOC%20V7_... ) clearly state that one of the criteria for surgery is being "the legal age of majority to give consent for medical procedures in a given country"
gnlad 4y ago
There is a lot more. You are forced to list pronouns, declare your gender at conferences, read daily articles about trans people in all major newspapers. Prospective Supreme court justices have to delegate the definition of "woman" to a biologist. And you'll be called transphobic at the slightest infraction of the ever growing set of rules. The whole rainbow movement exists to gain positions, money and power and to have a free pass to yell at dissenters.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  It really feels like there is real split in the "trans-community". Between those who actually just want to identify with their new gender quietly and get on with their lives. With only people around them accepting them. And then the online and it's allied that push for all sort of weirdness and political visibility and gains. Many don't have much issues at least those to air in public about first one. The later one seems to aim in places also ruin things that they enjoy. Just for signalling and power.
- badwolf 4y ago
  When exactly have you been forced to list your pronouns?
  - curtisblaine 4y ago
    At work you often are. For example, many top tech employers force you to add your pronouns on your mail signature.
    - otterley 4y ago
      Which employers, specifically? I work for AWS and they do not have such a requirement. Doing so is completely voluntary.

zionic 4y ago

[flagged]

thomasfedb 4y ago
Given that you've clearly decided that trans activists have "delusions" I'm not sure there's much hope, however... - What changes to your language are they demanding? If you mean they ask you to refer to them in a particular way, then this is not an uncommon thing. People often ask to be referred to in a particular way. For example, most people don't like being called "fruitloop". - If what you mean by "anti-scientific ideas" is that that people exists who either a) are not conventionally male or female, or b) feel very strongly that their gender is not the one assigned to them at birth, then I would argue that these ideas are not anti-scientific at all. There is a huge amount of nuance in the science of human development that is left out in the "conventional" wisdom. I'm a non-binary person, a scientist, and a medical doctor. So I am obviously invested here on several fronts.
- jchw 4y ago
  Hopefully it was accidental and not a sleight of hand, but I hope you realize you pivoted a statement about the trans activists being pushed back against (that they are “deluded”) to being about trans people as a whole. I feel like this kind of pivot happens so often in bad faith that people now do it subconsciously and not even necessarily in bad faith but simply out of habit. Similarly, (but not necessarily in the exact same vein,) there is an overarching sentiment that all trans people agree with the broader LGBT community, but it’s definitely not true.
  - thomasfedb 4y ago
    Fixed! Yep, that was a slightly uncharitable reading of the parent post I accept.
    - jchw 4y ago
      It seems like your uncharitable reading was the one that actually intended, which is unfortunate. I guess that’s the perils of assuming good faith. I do think it is good to be precise here, though. The human brain really seems to like viewing groups of people as hiveminds.
      - thomasfedb 4y ago
        Totally agree. The charitable interpretation is the right one to make if you actually care about arguing the ideas. I'm sure my philosophy professor would be very upset with me.
  - zionic 4y ago
    - jchw 4y ago
      Did you mean to reply to me? I have not really made a statement about the actual topic because it is personally irrelevant to me. I just want people to argue in good faith, even if at this point a reasoned discussion seems impossible. (And just to be explicit, by that I mean, we’re probably not going to see eye to eye, so I’m probably not going to engage with your rhetoric. Sorry.)
- zionic 4y ago
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - dahart 4y ago
    You are aware of the existence of physically intersex, hermaphroditic, and androgynous humans? Are you aware that trans identifying people frequently exhibit physiological characteristics, such as extremely low sperm count in born-male people? Are you aware of the existence of cultures that officially recognize multiple genders, like in Samoa, Mexico, India, & Chile? Your own example of race is telling, since race is not binary. What race should someone call themselves, if they have a father from Finland, a mother from Zimbabwe, and are born in Germany are a German citizen and only speak German? What are you scared of? Why are you offended enough by what gender someone else feels to call it delusions and lies? Is it a lie to call someone Nathan when they ask you to?
    - zionic 4y ago
      - dahart 4y ago
      - ok_dad 4y ago
CharlesW 4y ago
I remember when the first person I knew disclosed that they were trans. The pronoun thing was weird for a day or two. But it's no more a burden than using "they" with you since I don't know your gender. Calling trans people "delusional" is transphobic. If you don't think of yourself as intolerant, you're probably experiencing cognitive dissonance about the whole thing. If you're not homophobic, ask yourself why you're being so reactive about this. I grew up in a time when "fag" was tossed around very casually. When I realized that the use of that word hurt people, I stopped. These are not hills to die on.
- zionic 4y ago
  - CharlesW 4y ago
dang 4y ago
If you keep using HN for hellish flamewar, we will ban you. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. More at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31389366 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31389366.
- zionic 4y ago
  Does this apply equally to those promoting trans agendas in the comments? I ask because here we are, in a thread specifically about these kinds of issues, and you are threatening my account with termination for disagreeing. I don’t see any threats made to the people on the other side, despite posting incredibly divisive/controversial views. When you selectively moderate along ideological lines you harm the community. I could understand removing these types of posts from say, a technical update about AWS as it’s off topic. This post however is about social issues and the comments are about social issues. Perhaps you think that’s off topic for HN, so maybe remove the topic entirely?
  - dang 4y ago
    We don't ban accounts for disagreeing, but for breaking the site guidelines. Your account was the most flamewarrish one in the thread by a large margin. If you think I missed a worse offender, I'd be happy to take a look, but from what I saw your comments were the most aggressive (in both quality and quantity). If that's right, then you're in no position to point fingers at others. If you read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html, it isn't hard to see what would be ban-worthy about that. Not banning such accounts would be like not having a fire department.

chmod600 4y ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy

thomasfedb 4y ago
If you're accusing me, be good enough to be specific.
- chmod600 4y ago
  "please let us live our lives... not a lot more to it" But there is more to it. There are issues about women's sports, public education, the ethics of irreversible medical procedures on minors without an objective diagnosis, etc. You explicitly avoided the controversy, and it's not really fair to do that.
  - thomasfedb 4y ago
    I do really think that what most trans activists (and most trans people) want is "please let us live our lives". That said, I'm in Australia, and maybe things are really different wherever you are. Of course, "live our lives" includes trans kids being able to live their lives too, being safe at their school, etc. And trans people should be able to play sport if they like, it's a healthy thing to do. As far as social sport goes, I personally prefer mixed sport, but I think that the excitement over trans people playing in women's leagues is unnecessary. At the professional level, I can understand a need for a bit more precision, but my understanding is that the international sporting bodies have regulations and they (the sporting bodies) don't seem to think there's a big issue. As far as "irreversible medical procedures on minors" goes... (and this is the one that spurred me on to reply) ...it's just not a thing. And again, I'm in Australia, but I'm pretty sure this applies globally. To my knowledge, we simply do not perform reassignment surgery on children. The WPATH (World Professional Association for Transgender Health) guidelines (available here: https://www.wpath.org/media/cms/Documents/SOC%20v7/SOC%20V7_English2012.pdf?_t=1613669341 https://www.wpath.org/media/cms/Documents/SOC%20v7/SOC%20V7_... ) clearly state that one of the criteria for surgery is being "the legal age of majority to give consent for medical procedures in a given country"

gnlad 4y ago

There is a lot more. You are forced to list pronouns, declare your gender at conferences, read daily articles about trans people in all major newspapers. Prospective Supreme court justices have to delegate the definition of "woman" to a biologist. And you'll be called transphobic at the slightest infraction of the ever growing set of rules. The whole rainbow movement exists to gain positions, money and power and to have a free pass to yell at dissenters.

Ekaros 4y ago
It really feels like there is real split in the "trans-community". Between those who actually just want to identify with their new gender quietly and get on with their lives. With only people around them accepting them. And then the online and it's allied that push for all sort of weirdness and political visibility and gains. Many don't have much issues at least those to air in public about first one. The later one seems to aim in places also ruin things that they enjoy. Just for signalling and power.
badwolf 4y ago
When exactly have you been forced to list your pronouns?
- curtisblaine 4y ago
  At work you often are. For example, many top tech employers force you to add your pronouns on your mail signature.
  - otterley 4y ago
    Which employers, specifically? I work for AWS and they do not have such a requirement. Doing so is completely voluntary.