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For software engineers in Europe is Dublin, Berlin and London. I'm one of the few that made it all the way to California. I've been always the guy trying to pus

For software engineers in Europe is Dublin, Berlin and London. I'm one of the few that made it all the way to California. I've been always the guy trying to push fellow software engineers to go to the USA. Even though I lasted in the Silicon Valley only a year before quitting my full-time job and becoming a digital nomad and boostrapping my own SaaS company https://www.waiterio.com https://www.waiterio.com

DoreenMichele 4y ago
Thank you. For software, it's San Francisco, not Los Angeles, that is Mecca in the US.
- Axsuul 4y ago
  Los Angeles has its own prominent startup scene as well if you’re looking for that kind of lifestyle.
mettamage 4y ago
If you have any tips to get to the US as a European, I’d be happy to hear them. If needed, my email is in my profile.
- tehlike 4y ago
  Shortest path is working for one of the FAANG companies, and requesting internal transfer to US. This basically skips the daunting process that's H1B lottery.
- kaashif 4y ago
  A path I have seen many people take, and one I'm going to take soon, is to work at a US tech company (not necessarily FAANG, lots of largish companies do this) and transfer internally from Europe to the US. There is no lottery for L1B visas, so it's usually hassle free compared to that H1B mess. L1B visas can also convert to green cards at some point, but I have no idea how easy that is (probably not easy at all).
  - Underphil 4y ago
    I internally transferred (with my family) from the UK to California in late 2016 and secured a green card in early 2020.
  - sgjohnson 4y ago
    > L1B visas can also convert to green cards at some point, but I have no idea how easy that is (probably not easy at all). False. L1B is not related to Green Card in any way. You can get the employer to petiton you for a green card while working on L1B.
    - School-Cotton 4y ago
      L1 is related to green card in the sense that with some statuses, you can never get a green card, but with L1 you can.
      - sgjohnson 4y ago
        That’s called dual intent.
- astura 4y ago
  Marrying an American is probably the quickest and easiest way. You're not allowed to work on a K1 Visa, but once you're married your spouse can apply for a green card for you and right now there isn't much wait for green cards for America spouses - friend of mine's wife got hers in about five months after they got married.
  - tehlike 4y ago
    This is true, but you need to really make sure your intent is to really marry, and not marry for greencard purposes which is fraud.
    - astura 4y ago
      Certainly, yes! I am sorry if I didn't make that clear. Not only should you actually be in love/want to marry to avoid fraud but also for your own well-being. The United States has an adult population of 258.3 million, so it's likely you'd find someone to fall in love with if you're really looking. I have some experience here, I have a double digit amount of family members who came to the US to marry into my family, including my brother-in-law. With one exception they are all very happy marriages, the longest lasting 3 decades. There were some who were definitely were looking to marry Americans to immigrate, but the relationship is still real.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - tehlike 4y ago
        Americans are a great bunch. Contrary to popular (outsider) view, I think american family bond is very strong.
  - mettamage 4y ago
    I’ll humor this idea. What city is the best to find someone who is/has: Open to new experiences and concepts (museums, art, dancing, music) <— literally the “openness to experience” on the big 5 High cognitive ability Into meditation, yoga and exercise? Somewhat into gaming and anime? (Optional) Somewhat of a programmer or (game) designer/related (optional)
ascar 4y ago
My dream was to go to California too when I started studying computer science. Then I learned about employment laws, health care and social security in the US. As a person that had close experience how important these things are when things go wrong even though you might've been a millionaire, I feel pretty confident with my choice to stay in Europe. To anyone that thinks these things don't matter if you earn enough money and safe a fair amount, I wish that they and especially their children never get into a situation that shows them how naive that thought was.
- tehlike 4y ago
  That doesn't compute. If you work for, say, a FAANG company, you have pretty solid healthcare. Social security is surely limited, but there's good benefits for disability and so on. The amount of money you can make in the US as an experienced engineer is probably 5 fold if not more. Senior engineers are easily pulling 7 figures here, which means even taking into account your cost-of-living, you'll end up fairly ahead.
  - ascar 4y ago
    > If you work for, say, a FAANG company, you have pretty solid healthcare. While you're employed. For how many days of sickness does your contract say do they have to keep you employed? Isn't it even employment at will? I don't wanna enter this discussion further. I'm just gonna finish with that I experienced first hand someone making what's today nearly a million a year (in Germany no less!) and ending up on social security within a few years due to sickness and bad investment. And that's with universal health care. A good job, high earnings and decent savings give you leeway, but they will not protect you from tragedy and even more important they will not protect your kids from tragedy that have no fault in whatever happens.
    - amscanne 4y ago
      Not extending the discussion (I’m not the parent commenter), but I think your argument highlights the cultural differences that exist in an interesting way. In the US, independence, self-reliance and optimism are a much bigger part of the common culture. You are considering only worst case scenarios and assuming that the state is the only thing you can rely on. Consider how your view would be different with a more optimistic view of your own luck/ability to recover, and a more pessimistic view of government.
UweSchmidt 4y ago
Never heard anyone in Germany dreaming of going to Berlin to "make it" as a software engineer, as if there was a mythical Silicon Valley-like atmosphere of opportunity. Correct me if I'm wrong and I'm missing out! You can go for that Berlin lifestyle and to work in some neat startups (as an underpaid employee) but that's not the canonical definition for succcess imo.
- raverbashing 4y ago
  You're talking from a very German centric point of view ;) But it is true that most startups are in Berlin, even non-German ones open technical offices there. And it's also true that the average German has little interest in going there.
  - UweSchmidt 4y ago
    I met plenty of foreigners in software jobs all around Germany, aspiring to and usually achieving that sweet German middle class life; I have not noticed any aspirations from them of heading to Berlin. I think the dream of finding ambitious and cool people in a hot location and succeed with a true startup, i.e. not something backed or done by people who are already successful or well connected is dead anyway even in Silicon Valley and never really existed anywhere else. Over there however you still have those mystical FAANG salaries... Dublin and London might be different from Irish and English perspective, respectively.
    - raverbashing 4y ago
      > I have not noticed any aspirations from them of heading to Berlin. Yes, the profile of the people that go to Berlin is different from people who'll go to a software job somewhere else in Germany. Very rarely you'll have that situation of someone going internally to Berlin. I might say that Berlin have few engineering offices of the biggest (non-Berlin centered) German companies. > I think the dream of finding ambitious and cool people in a hot location and succeed with a true startup, i.e. not something backed or done by people who are already successful or well connected is dead anyway even in Silicon Valley and never really existed anywhere else. Very possible. But the cultural draw of Berlin is much bigger than SV. Hands down. Dublin and London also attract some profiles (given the companies that go there) but not many people think Dublin is the coolest city.
tgv 4y ago
What's so attractive about Dublin, Berlin and London? I've never seen them as remotely interesting for devs. London is for sleazy bankers.
- toiletduck 4y ago
  Well there's not a great deal going on in somewhere like the middle of the Forest of Dean as far as software engineering challenges go - you do tend to have to go where businesses are solving problems.. even in a more remote culture the base for companies will be near big cities because big cities are near transport links.
- rowanajmarshall 4y ago
  I can only speak for London, but: * Salary * Way more opportunities * Big city life, especially attractive to me, since I grew up in a rural, isolated farming town It's the same story as the last 200 years of industrialisation and urbanisation.
- giorgioz 4y ago
  Dublin, a lot of US companies have European headquarters in Dublin. The salary is higher than other EU cities. The cost is higher but if you are in your 20s without kids you can save a lot more than what would save in other cheaper cities with lower salaries. London is big, there are A LOT of things in London. Yes there are more sleazy bankers in London than other places, but London is big, there are lot of things there, don't simplify things that much. It's NOT like 100% of people in Switzerland are only making watches and swiss army knives.

DoreenMichele 4y ago

Thank you. For software, it's San Francisco, not Los Angeles, that is Mecca in the US.

Axsuul 4y ago
Los Angeles has its own prominent startup scene as well if you’re looking for that kind of lifestyle.

mettamage 4y ago

If you have any tips to get to the US as a European, I’d be happy to hear them. If needed, my email is in my profile.

tehlike 4y ago
Shortest path is working for one of the FAANG companies, and requesting internal transfer to US. This basically skips the daunting process that's H1B lottery.
kaashif 4y ago
A path I have seen many people take, and one I'm going to take soon, is to work at a US tech company (not necessarily FAANG, lots of largish companies do this) and transfer internally from Europe to the US. There is no lottery for L1B visas, so it's usually hassle free compared to that H1B mess. L1B visas can also convert to green cards at some point, but I have no idea how easy that is (probably not easy at all).
- Underphil 4y ago
  I internally transferred (with my family) from the UK to California in late 2016 and secured a green card in early 2020.
- sgjohnson 4y ago
  > L1B visas can also convert to green cards at some point, but I have no idea how easy that is (probably not easy at all). False. L1B is not related to Green Card in any way. You can get the employer to petiton you for a green card while working on L1B.
  - School-Cotton 4y ago
    L1 is related to green card in the sense that with some statuses, you can never get a green card, but with L1 you can.
    - sgjohnson 4y ago
      That’s called dual intent.
astura 4y ago
Marrying an American is probably the quickest and easiest way. You're not allowed to work on a K1 Visa, but once you're married your spouse can apply for a green card for you and right now there isn't much wait for green cards for America spouses - friend of mine's wife got hers in about five months after they got married.
- tehlike 4y ago
  This is true, but you need to really make sure your intent is to really marry, and not marry for greencard purposes which is fraud.
  - astura 4y ago
    Certainly, yes! I am sorry if I didn't make that clear. Not only should you actually be in love/want to marry to avoid fraud but also for your own well-being. The United States has an adult population of 258.3 million, so it's likely you'd find someone to fall in love with if you're really looking. I have some experience here, I have a double digit amount of family members who came to the US to marry into my family, including my brother-in-law. With one exception they are all very happy marriages, the longest lasting 3 decades. There were some who were definitely were looking to marry Americans to immigrate, but the relationship is still real.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - tehlike 4y ago
      Americans are a great bunch. Contrary to popular (outsider) view, I think american family bond is very strong.
- mettamage 4y ago
  I’ll humor this idea. What city is the best to find someone who is/has: Open to new experiences and concepts (museums, art, dancing, music) <— literally the “openness to experience” on the big 5 High cognitive ability Into meditation, yoga and exercise? Somewhat into gaming and anime? (Optional) Somewhat of a programmer or (game) designer/related (optional)

ascar 4y ago

My dream was to go to California too when I started studying computer science. Then I learned about employment laws, health care and social security in the US. As a person that had close experience how important these things are when things go wrong even though you might've been a millionaire, I feel pretty confident with my choice to stay in Europe. To anyone that thinks these things don't matter if you earn enough money and safe a fair amount, I wish that they and especially their children never get into a situation that shows them how naive that thought was.

tehlike 4y ago
That doesn't compute. If you work for, say, a FAANG company, you have pretty solid healthcare. Social security is surely limited, but there's good benefits for disability and so on. The amount of money you can make in the US as an experienced engineer is probably 5 fold if not more. Senior engineers are easily pulling 7 figures here, which means even taking into account your cost-of-living, you'll end up fairly ahead.
- ascar 4y ago
  > If you work for, say, a FAANG company, you have pretty solid healthcare. While you're employed. For how many days of sickness does your contract say do they have to keep you employed? Isn't it even employment at will? I don't wanna enter this discussion further. I'm just gonna finish with that I experienced first hand someone making what's today nearly a million a year (in Germany no less!) and ending up on social security within a few years due to sickness and bad investment. And that's with universal health care. A good job, high earnings and decent savings give you leeway, but they will not protect you from tragedy and even more important they will not protect your kids from tragedy that have no fault in whatever happens.
  - amscanne 4y ago
    Not extending the discussion (I’m not the parent commenter), but I think your argument highlights the cultural differences that exist in an interesting way. In the US, independence, self-reliance and optimism are a much bigger part of the common culture. You are considering only worst case scenarios and assuming that the state is the only thing you can rely on. Consider how your view would be different with a more optimistic view of your own luck/ability to recover, and a more pessimistic view of government.

UweSchmidt 4y ago

Never heard anyone in Germany dreaming of going to Berlin to "make it" as a software engineer, as if there was a mythical Silicon Valley-like atmosphere of opportunity. Correct me if I'm wrong and I'm missing out! You can go for that Berlin lifestyle and to work in some neat startups (as an underpaid employee) but that's not the canonical definition for succcess imo.

raverbashing 4y ago
You're talking from a very German centric point of view ;) But it is true that most startups are in Berlin, even non-German ones open technical offices there. And it's also true that the average German has little interest in going there.
- UweSchmidt 4y ago
  I met plenty of foreigners in software jobs all around Germany, aspiring to and usually achieving that sweet German middle class life; I have not noticed any aspirations from them of heading to Berlin. I think the dream of finding ambitious and cool people in a hot location and succeed with a true startup, i.e. not something backed or done by people who are already successful or well connected is dead anyway even in Silicon Valley and never really existed anywhere else. Over there however you still have those mystical FAANG salaries... Dublin and London might be different from Irish and English perspective, respectively.
  - raverbashing 4y ago
    > I have not noticed any aspirations from them of heading to Berlin. Yes, the profile of the people that go to Berlin is different from people who'll go to a software job somewhere else in Germany. Very rarely you'll have that situation of someone going internally to Berlin. I might say that Berlin have few engineering offices of the biggest (non-Berlin centered) German companies. > I think the dream of finding ambitious and cool people in a hot location and succeed with a true startup, i.e. not something backed or done by people who are already successful or well connected is dead anyway even in Silicon Valley and never really existed anywhere else. Very possible. But the cultural draw of Berlin is much bigger than SV. Hands down. Dublin and London also attract some profiles (given the companies that go there) but not many people think Dublin is the coolest city.

tgv 4y ago

What's so attractive about Dublin, Berlin and London? I've never seen them as remotely interesting for devs. London is for sleazy bankers.

toiletduck 4y ago
Well there's not a great deal going on in somewhere like the middle of the Forest of Dean as far as software engineering challenges go - you do tend to have to go where businesses are solving problems.. even in a more remote culture the base for companies will be near big cities because big cities are near transport links.
rowanajmarshall 4y ago
I can only speak for London, but: * Salary * Way more opportunities * Big city life, especially attractive to me, since I grew up in a rural, isolated farming town It's the same story as the last 200 years of industrialisation and urbanisation.
giorgioz 4y ago
Dublin, a lot of US companies have European headquarters in Dublin. The salary is higher than other EU cities. The cost is higher but if you are in your 20s without kids you can save a lot more than what would save in other cheaper cities with lower salaries. London is big, there are A LOT of things in London. Yes there are more sleazy bankers in London than other places, but London is big, there are lot of things there, don't simplify things that much. It's NOT like 100% of people in Switzerland are only making watches and swiss army knives.