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> Are you honestly blaming cryptocurrencies for climate change, inflation and Russia‘s war against Ukraine? That’s crazy. No, I don't think you understood what

by wlll 4y ago

> Are you honestly blaming cryptocurrencies for climate change, inflation and Russia‘s war against Ukraine? That’s crazy. No, I don't think you understood what I wrote. > Climate change is a long running issue that started waaay before Bitcoin even was invented. What's your point here? Climate change has been around for ages so it's OK to blow a load of electricity on something that's not particularly useful? > Still projects other than Bitcoin are working hard to implement staking to use much less energy. Bitcoin isn't though, and Ethereum has been 6 months away for what, more than two years? They may never change. In the mean time it's blasting through a shit-ton of power for little to no actual value. Happy for people to stop burning through that power and pick up their hobby again when the power usage has been sorted out. > Inflation is an issue brought on us by Western governments drowning in debt for decades: For wars in Afghanistan and the middle east, unsustainable social security systems, stimulus packages. Power companies are literally putting their prices up because of a shortage of sources of power. "It's OK if we use all this power because governments are also bad" is kinda ridiculous. > And Russia … Putin and his supporters have finally come to terms with the fact it lost its super power Status and in a peaceful manner make the most of their vast and empty territory. I don't understand what you're trying to say here, that Putin invading Ukraine is making the most if it's vast and empty territory?

G3rn0ti 4y ago
> What's your point here? Climate change has been around for ages so it's OK to blow a load of electricity on something that's not particularly useful? So shall we stop inventing technology that draws power because it’s bad for the environment? I mean Bitcoin isn’t consuming electricity just for fun. People use Bitcoin and that’s why it consumes power. Like people using air conditioning, fridges, washing machines and cars. Furthermore, the raw KWh figure the Bitcoin network is consuming (which AFAIK currently is unknown because miners moved all around the globe in the last couple of years) is not a useful measure of its green house gas emissions as we don’t know how it’s energy is created. It could well be on renewables by large percentage as they are cheaper in some countries (e.g. hydroelectricity in Norway) and mining is expensive. > Power companies are literally putting their prices up because of a shortage of sources of power. Price surges among some goods are not inflation but simply an indication of scarcity. Power scarcity affects Bitcoin as much as other sectors of the economy. Price surges across all economic sectors are inflation. BTW: It’s the inflationary policies of the FED and its equivalents creating cheap money and driving the investment bubbles … including the crypto bubble. If you‘re angry about the crypto craze put the blame also on the current monetary regime. > I don't understand what you're trying to say here, that Putin invading Ukraine is making the most if it's vast and empty territory? I was referring to parent‘s blame of the Ukrainian war on cryptos. It’s not the fault of crypto heads that Putin invaded its neighboring country and caused gasoline and electricity prices to rise. BTW: It’s probably not even Putin‘s fault alone. Government regulations to support the transition to renewable energy sources have been pushing prices up for electricity and gasoline already for years, at least in Europe.
- wlll 4y ago
  > So shall we stop inventing technology that draws power because it’s bad for the environment? That wasn't my argument. My argument was that Bitcoin etc. are bad because of the power they consume when as far as I can tell almost all of what happens on these blockchains can be done far more efficiently and faster on existing technology, or in the case of transactions, existing banking infrastructure. > People use Bitcoin and that’s why it consumes power. I don't doubt it, it would be nice if they owned their externalities so I could stop being angry with them for it. > Like people using air conditioning, fridges, washing machines and cars. Things that we (realistically in modern society) need. The alternative to, for instance, washing machines would be to hand-wash clothes. We don't need Bitcoin. It hasn't enabled anything that couldn't be done already using the banking system, or with existing non-power abusive technology. > Furthermore, the raw KWh figure the Bitcoin network is consuming (which AFAIK currently is unknown because miners moved all around the globe in the last couple of years) is not a useful measure of its green house gas emissions as we don’t know how it’s energy is created. It could well be on renewables by large percentage as they are cheaper in some countries (e.g. hydroelectricity in Norway) and mining is expensive. Worldwide power generation is a zero-sum game. There is limited power generation available each day. Right now even though we're trying to move to renewable or green energy, there is not enough of that to power what we need through renewables alone so we use fossil fuel. If you removed the blockchain load from that system you could reduce the fossil fuel burn by approximately one whole country per day of load. It doesn't matter where the generation comes from, using any of it to power what is effectively a pointless distrubuted heater is removing our ability to shift away from fossil fuels. > I was referring to parent‘s blame of the Ukrainian war on cryptos. Once again, that's not what I wrote. Ukraine is at war with Russia. Much of the rest of the world is at war with Russia by proxy, because most of the rest of the world is sick of Putin's bullshit. Putin is making shit loads of money from selling Gas to Europe, especially Germany. If we instead of running PoW blockchains, and used the far more efficient existing banking infrastructure, we could almost completely shut off all of Germany's gas from Russia (at least that portion used to generate electricity), significantly weakening his position. It's a zero sum game. We're using renewable electricity to power bitcoin so we have to use fossil fuel for other stuff. Plus, the whole "bitcoin runs on renewables" thing isn't entirely true https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/feb/18/bitcoin-miners-revive-fossil-fuel-plant-co2-emissions-soared https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/feb/18/bitcoin-m... > Government regulations to support the transition to renewable energy sources have been pushing prices up for electricity and gasoline already for years, at least in Europe. I'm pretty sure renewables are actually cheaper to produce than fossil fuels.

by wlll 4y ago

G3rn0ti 4y ago

> What's your point here? Climate change has been around for ages so it's OK to blow a load of electricity on something that's not particularly useful? So shall we stop inventing technology that draws power because it’s bad for the environment? I mean Bitcoin isn’t consuming electricity just for fun. People use Bitcoin and that’s why it consumes power. Like people using air conditioning, fridges, washing machines and cars. Furthermore, the raw KWh figure the Bitcoin network is consuming (which AFAIK currently is unknown because miners moved all around the globe in the last couple of years) is not a useful measure of its green house gas emissions as we don’t know how it’s energy is created. It could well be on renewables by large percentage as they are cheaper in some countries (e.g. hydroelectricity in Norway) and mining is expensive. > Power companies are literally putting their prices up because of a shortage of sources of power. Price surges among some goods are not inflation but simply an indication of scarcity. Power scarcity affects Bitcoin as much as other sectors of the economy. Price surges across all economic sectors are inflation. BTW: It’s the inflationary policies of the FED and its equivalents creating cheap money and driving the investment bubbles … including the crypto bubble. If you‘re angry about the crypto craze put the blame also on the current monetary regime. > I don't understand what you're trying to say here, that Putin invading Ukraine is making the most if it's vast and empty territory? I was referring to parent‘s blame of the Ukrainian war on cryptos. It’s not the fault of crypto heads that Putin invaded its neighboring country and caused gasoline and electricity prices to rise. BTW: It’s probably not even Putin‘s fault alone. Government regulations to support the transition to renewable energy sources have been pushing prices up for electricity and gasoline already for years, at least in Europe.

wlll 4y ago
> So shall we stop inventing technology that draws power because it’s bad for the environment? That wasn't my argument. My argument was that Bitcoin etc. are bad because of the power they consume when as far as I can tell almost all of what happens on these blockchains can be done far more efficiently and faster on existing technology, or in the case of transactions, existing banking infrastructure. > People use Bitcoin and that’s why it consumes power. I don't doubt it, it would be nice if they owned their externalities so I could stop being angry with them for it. > Like people using air conditioning, fridges, washing machines and cars. Things that we (realistically in modern society) need. The alternative to, for instance, washing machines would be to hand-wash clothes. We don't need Bitcoin. It hasn't enabled anything that couldn't be done already using the banking system, or with existing non-power abusive technology. > Furthermore, the raw KWh figure the Bitcoin network is consuming (which AFAIK currently is unknown because miners moved all around the globe in the last couple of years) is not a useful measure of its green house gas emissions as we don’t know how it’s energy is created. It could well be on renewables by large percentage as they are cheaper in some countries (e.g. hydroelectricity in Norway) and mining is expensive. Worldwide power generation is a zero-sum game. There is limited power generation available each day. Right now even though we're trying to move to renewable or green energy, there is not enough of that to power what we need through renewables alone so we use fossil fuel. If you removed the blockchain load from that system you could reduce the fossil fuel burn by approximately one whole country per day of load. It doesn't matter where the generation comes from, using any of it to power what is effectively a pointless distrubuted heater is removing our ability to shift away from fossil fuels. > I was referring to parent‘s blame of the Ukrainian war on cryptos. Once again, that's not what I wrote. Ukraine is at war with Russia. Much of the rest of the world is at war with Russia by proxy, because most of the rest of the world is sick of Putin's bullshit. Putin is making shit loads of money from selling Gas to Europe, especially Germany. If we instead of running PoW blockchains, and used the far more efficient existing banking infrastructure, we could almost completely shut off all of Germany's gas from Russia (at least that portion used to generate electricity), significantly weakening his position. It's a zero sum game. We're using renewable electricity to power bitcoin so we have to use fossil fuel for other stuff. Plus, the whole "bitcoin runs on renewables" thing isn't entirely true https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/feb/18/bitcoin-miners-revive-fossil-fuel-plant-co2-emissions-soared https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/feb/18/bitcoin-m... > Government regulations to support the transition to renewable energy sources have been pushing prices up for electricity and gasoline already for years, at least in Europe. I'm pretty sure renewables are actually cheaper to produce than fossil fuels.