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I think this is a key reminder of how important the American FDA, EPA and other consumer protection agencies are and how terrible it is for politicians to consi

I think this is a key reminder of how important the American FDA, EPA and other consumer protection agencies are and how terrible it is for politicians to consider gutting or neutering them.

petermcneeley 4y ago
There are other ways to deal with these kinds of issues: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/jan/22/china-baby-milk-scandal-death-sentence#:~:text=A%20Chinese%20court%20has%20condemned,and%20made%20almost%20300%2C000%20sick https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/jan/22/china-baby-mil....
- jvanderbot 4y ago
  why not both?
- hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
  Seems like very different circumstances in the Chinese case. In that case, the condemned knowingly mixed a poison with milk intended for baby formula - IMO this crosses the line from negligence to murder. But I agree, even if you don't go all the way to the point of executing offenders, making more execs personally liable when there are gross cases of neglect would be an improvement.
- KennyBlanken 4y ago
  Meanwhile, in the US, the FDA publishes a notice that is written by the company: https://www.fda.gov/safety/recalls-market-withdrawals-safety-alerts/abbott-voluntarily-recalls-powder-formulas-manufactured-one-plant https://www.fda.gov/safety/recalls-market-withdrawals-safety... Read through and carefully notice things like: > Cronobacter sakazakii is commonly found in the environment and a variety of areas in the home. > It's important to follow the instructions for proper preparation, handling and storage of powder formulas. ...and paragraphs of text explaining how they test for this stuff and found no evidence of contamination. It's also pretty infuriating that companies get to claim their recalls are "voluntary" when they're anything but. The agency comes to them, says "recall or we will" and the company gets to save face and call it voluntary and act like they're heroes. By the time the FDA is involved, it's because the company didn't act voluntarily when it had evidence of product contamination.
- rkk3 4y ago
  Until Covid hit I had a friend who would go stores in the USA, Buy baby formula at retail price and re-sell it on WeChat to wealthier people in China who she'd mail it to. She actually made a decent margin, because they really don't trust the manufactures there.
  - LorenPechtel 4y ago
    I'm surprised it was worth shipping. I do understand, though--I have relatives over there and the majority of our baggage is always various things they have requested, mostly because they don't trust the local products.
    - rkk3 4y ago
      > I'm surprised it was worth shipping I was as well. I don't know what the "Chinese Fedex" rate's were but maybe it's because most of the volume they move is from China -> US and the return trips are empty.
      - p_l 4y ago
        Post office in the village my parents live is also post office for major Chinese immigrant community. This resulted in small post office pushing two or more 2TEU containers every day filled majorly with powdered milk, sent as normal international post package to China.
wahnfrieden 4y ago
[flagged]
- rob_c 4y ago
- andrew_ 4y ago
  this is where our ideology conflicts with our needs. I'm a libertarian in many ways, but I'm not religious in adherence to the ideology, and see the need for the FDA and EPA. I'm also in favor of keeping their roles confined and reasonable. The voices of the extremes are too loud these days.
  - rob_c 4y ago
    Everyone thinks twitter represents buying bread at the shops. Eventually people will catch on. Give it 5years
- HarryHirsch 4y ago
  Thiel is unconvincing. The guy studied law and philosophy and is now a financier. He has no understanding at all about supply chains because he never encountered any and should not be let near them.
missedthecue 4y ago
On the other hand, the FDA continues to block the import of European manufactured formula.
- HarryHirsch 4y ago
  Someone has to do the blocking - reliable domestic food supply is a matter of national security.
  - raverbashing 4y ago
    Yes but apparently previous blockings were done by issues like minor labelling issues. Which of course have to be followed, but put a sticker on the bottle instead of block the import.
  - thatfrenchguy 4y ago
    If you open the market, you’ll get Americans products to be inspected by the EU, which is better at its job than the FDA.
    - ta988 4y ago
      If you open the market now, wouldn't European countries struggle to get formula because US has a much higher buying capacity?
  - formerkrogemp 4y ago
    Right but we're here because the domestic food supply is... Unreliable at the moment for baby formula. So we can't import European formula because we need to protect the domestic food supply for national security? Wtf?
- literallyWTF 4y ago
  I bought all my baby formula imported from Austria. Fuck that shit, don’t trust American companies. And with all this news, glad I made that decision. Highly unfortunate that their are families in the “greatest country in the world” who now have to literally scavenge for formula.
whiddershins 4y ago
Counter example: Underwriters Lab.
- CharlesW 4y ago
  UL is not a consumer protection agency, but is one of several companies approved to perform safety testing by federal agencies. They do important work.
  - PolygonSheep 4y ago
    > UL is not a consumer protection agency I feel the most protected as a consumer when I don't get shocked plugging something in.
- mmastrac 4y ago
  Could you elaborate on this?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
baggy_trough 4y ago
Whether the FDA has contributed to a net saving or net loss of life is a very debatable question.
mhb 4y ago
How Bad Government Policy is Fueling the Infant Formula Shortage https://reason.com/volokh/2022/05/13/how-bad-government-policy-is-fueling-the-infant-formula-shortage/ https://reason.com/volokh/2022/05/13/how-bad-government-poli...
- azinman2 4y ago
  Not only is this pretty thin and not really recognizing the main issues aren’t government-created, it’s a libertarian rag trying to blame the government when private industry on their own puts out contaminated formula. If this isn’t exactly the kind of problem that shows why a pure libertarian position can go wrong, I don’t know what is.
  - efitz 4y ago
    > not really recognizing the main issues aren't government-created Quote from the article: "Bad U.S. policy surely didn't cause the infant formula crisis, but it just as surely made the situation worse than it needed to be." Much of the article seems to be making the argument that the FDA is preventing importation of formula from other nations during the crisis because the FDA hasn't done all its bureaucratic work wrt certification of those sources. This seems a relevant point to raise when we're talking about food shortages for infants.
    - alistairSH 4y ago
      And why is the FDA preventing imports? From the article, because the dairy industry convinced the previous POTUS to do so. It’s not like the FDA just decided out of thin air to ban Canadian formula - the decision was made higher up. Which isn’t to say the current POTUS shouldn’t tell them to relax that rule. They should. I’m objecting to laying so much blame on the FDA - our federal agencies are acting on laws and policies enacted by our politicians.
      - PolygonSheep 4y ago
        That was a terrible thing for Trump to do but now we have a different POTUS who is (supposedly) not beholden to the dairy industry, yet it's not been changed.
bingohbangoh 4y ago
There are many brands available in Europe that are not available here because the FDA drags it feet or otherwise prevents them selling here.
- toiletfuneral 4y ago
y-c-o-m-b 4y ago
Yeah when it works as intended sure, but as far as I'm concerned, the FDA is another incompetent government organization motivated by playing politics. FWIW I do NOT want them gutted or neutered financially, but there's obviously some serious flaws in how they do things and I think that starts with holding people at the top of the organization accountable.
INTPenis 4y ago
Absolutely but how hard is it to regulate an industry in a culture that prides itself on minimal government oversight?

I think this is a key reminder of how important the American FDA, EPA and other consumer protection agencies are and how terrible it is for politicians to consider gutting or neutering them.

petermcneeley 4y ago

There are other ways to deal with these kinds of issues: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/jan/22/china-baby-milk-scandal-death-sentence#:~:text=A%20Chinese%20court%20has%20condemned,and%20made%20almost%20300%2C000%20sick https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/jan/22/china-baby-mil....

jvanderbot 4y ago
why not both?
hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
Seems like very different circumstances in the Chinese case. In that case, the condemned knowingly mixed a poison with milk intended for baby formula - IMO this crosses the line from negligence to murder. But I agree, even if you don't go all the way to the point of executing offenders, making more execs personally liable when there are gross cases of neglect would be an improvement.
KennyBlanken 4y ago
Meanwhile, in the US, the FDA publishes a notice that is written by the company: https://www.fda.gov/safety/recalls-market-withdrawals-safety-alerts/abbott-voluntarily-recalls-powder-formulas-manufactured-one-plant https://www.fda.gov/safety/recalls-market-withdrawals-safety... Read through and carefully notice things like: > Cronobacter sakazakii is commonly found in the environment and a variety of areas in the home. > It's important to follow the instructions for proper preparation, handling and storage of powder formulas. ...and paragraphs of text explaining how they test for this stuff and found no evidence of contamination. It's also pretty infuriating that companies get to claim their recalls are "voluntary" when they're anything but. The agency comes to them, says "recall or we will" and the company gets to save face and call it voluntary and act like they're heroes. By the time the FDA is involved, it's because the company didn't act voluntarily when it had evidence of product contamination.
rkk3 4y ago
Until Covid hit I had a friend who would go stores in the USA, Buy baby formula at retail price and re-sell it on WeChat to wealthier people in China who she'd mail it to. She actually made a decent margin, because they really don't trust the manufactures there.
- LorenPechtel 4y ago
  I'm surprised it was worth shipping. I do understand, though--I have relatives over there and the majority of our baggage is always various things they have requested, mostly because they don't trust the local products.
  - rkk3 4y ago
    > I'm surprised it was worth shipping I was as well. I don't know what the "Chinese Fedex" rate's were but maybe it's because most of the volume they move is from China -> US and the return trips are empty.
    - p_l 4y ago
      Post office in the village my parents live is also post office for major Chinese immigrant community. This resulted in small post office pushing two or more 2TEU containers every day filled majorly with powdered milk, sent as normal international post package to China.

wahnfrieden 4y ago

[flagged]

rob_c 4y ago
andrew_ 4y ago
this is where our ideology conflicts with our needs. I'm a libertarian in many ways, but I'm not religious in adherence to the ideology, and see the need for the FDA and EPA. I'm also in favor of keeping their roles confined and reasonable. The voices of the extremes are too loud these days.
- rob_c 4y ago
  Everyone thinks twitter represents buying bread at the shops. Eventually people will catch on. Give it 5years
HarryHirsch 4y ago
Thiel is unconvincing. The guy studied law and philosophy and is now a financier. He has no understanding at all about supply chains because he never encountered any and should not be let near them.

missedthecue 4y ago

On the other hand, the FDA continues to block the import of European manufactured formula.

HarryHirsch 4y ago
Someone has to do the blocking - reliable domestic food supply is a matter of national security.
- raverbashing 4y ago
  Yes but apparently previous blockings were done by issues like minor labelling issues. Which of course have to be followed, but put a sticker on the bottle instead of block the import.
- thatfrenchguy 4y ago
  If you open the market, you’ll get Americans products to be inspected by the EU, which is better at its job than the FDA.
  - ta988 4y ago
    If you open the market now, wouldn't European countries struggle to get formula because US has a much higher buying capacity?
- formerkrogemp 4y ago
  Right but we're here because the domestic food supply is... Unreliable at the moment for baby formula. So we can't import European formula because we need to protect the domestic food supply for national security? Wtf?
literallyWTF 4y ago
I bought all my baby formula imported from Austria. Fuck that shit, don’t trust American companies. And with all this news, glad I made that decision. Highly unfortunate that their are families in the “greatest country in the world” who now have to literally scavenge for formula.

whiddershins 4y ago

Counter example: Underwriters Lab.

CharlesW 4y ago
UL is not a consumer protection agency, but is one of several companies approved to perform safety testing by federal agencies. They do important work.
- PolygonSheep 4y ago
  > UL is not a consumer protection agency I feel the most protected as a consumer when I don't get shocked plugging something in.
mmastrac 4y ago
Could you elaborate on this?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

baggy_trough 4y ago

Whether the FDA has contributed to a net saving or net loss of life is a very debatable question.

mhb 4y ago

How Bad Government Policy is Fueling the Infant Formula Shortage https://reason.com/volokh/2022/05/13/how-bad-government-policy-is-fueling-the-infant-formula-shortage/ https://reason.com/volokh/2022/05/13/how-bad-government-poli...

azinman2 4y ago
Not only is this pretty thin and not really recognizing the main issues aren’t government-created, it’s a libertarian rag trying to blame the government when private industry on their own puts out contaminated formula. If this isn’t exactly the kind of problem that shows why a pure libertarian position can go wrong, I don’t know what is.
- efitz 4y ago
  > not really recognizing the main issues aren't government-created Quote from the article: "Bad U.S. policy surely didn't cause the infant formula crisis, but it just as surely made the situation worse than it needed to be." Much of the article seems to be making the argument that the FDA is preventing importation of formula from other nations during the crisis because the FDA hasn't done all its bureaucratic work wrt certification of those sources. This seems a relevant point to raise when we're talking about food shortages for infants.
  - alistairSH 4y ago
    And why is the FDA preventing imports? From the article, because the dairy industry convinced the previous POTUS to do so. It’s not like the FDA just decided out of thin air to ban Canadian formula - the decision was made higher up. Which isn’t to say the current POTUS shouldn’t tell them to relax that rule. They should. I’m objecting to laying so much blame on the FDA - our federal agencies are acting on laws and policies enacted by our politicians.
    - PolygonSheep 4y ago
      That was a terrible thing for Trump to do but now we have a different POTUS who is (supposedly) not beholden to the dairy industry, yet it's not been changed.

bingohbangoh 4y ago

There are many brands available in Europe that are not available here because the FDA drags it feet or otherwise prevents them selling here.

toiletfuneral 4y ago

y-c-o-m-b 4y ago

Yeah when it works as intended sure, but as far as I'm concerned, the FDA is another incompetent government organization motivated by playing politics. FWIW I do NOT want them gutted or neutered financially, but there's obviously some serious flaws in how they do things and I think that starts with holding people at the top of the organization accountable.

INTPenis 4y ago

Absolutely but how hard is it to regulate an industry in a culture that prides itself on minimal government oversight?