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What strong link? AFAICT your first reference says basically everything is unknown. As for > We’ve been drinking bovine milk for about 10,000 years and heavil

by em500 4y ago

What strong link? AFAICT your first reference says basically everything is unknown. As for > We’ve been drinking bovine milk for about 10,000 years and heavily ingesting soy in the west for about 100 years (with a sharp uptick over the 50 years[1], the same time that testosterone is rapidly declining in men[2]) I think in countries like China and Japan those timelines are almost reversed.

dijit 4y ago
> What strong link? AFAICT your first reference says basically everything is unknown. The link literally says there's a link (as in, we need to investigate, there is some linkage here we don't understand) and it's understudied. it goes on to say: >> Research suggests that eating soy products might decrease FSH and LH in people who are premenopausal, which may impact fertility. And it might increase estrogen in people who are menopausal, leading to a reduction in menopausal symptoms. [..] It’s not yet understood how these changes could impact people who menstruate. Obviously this is affecting hormones >> Animal studies suggest there may be slight hormonal and reproductive changes in male mice when they are exposed to soy consistently throughout their entire lifetimes I'm arguing that we shouldn't jump on something until it's understood. > I think in countries like China and Asia those timelines are almost reversed. Yes, and China and Asia tends to be lactose intolerant, so what exactly is your point here? That an Asian persons body has had the time to adapt to Soy does not mean it's safe for westerners immediately, it could be, but it equally could not be.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- windexh8er 4y ago
  >> I'm arguing that we shouldn't jump on something until it's understood. Canada redid their food guide without the aid of lobbying. What didn't make the cut was meats and dairy [0]. The entire revamp of their national food guide was rooted in evidence based science. Humans don't need dairy milk, soy/oat/almond milks. Drink more water. [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46964549 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46964549
  - dijit 4y ago
    This is frustrating to contend with because I’m not actually arguing for dairy. I’m arguing against soy. And I’m not even arguing against soy, I’m arguing against taking soy at face value until we understand it better.
    - windexh8er 4y ago
      I had posted directly to that above. I think your original argument was misrepresentative of the hormonal links to soy. But it also does appear you're more pro-dairy, if that's not your argument that's fair. I would say it doesn't appear that way.
  - bobthechef 4y ago
- mftrhu 4y ago
  What strong link? "[...] might decrease [...] might increase [...] may impact [...] it's not yet understood [...] there may be slight changes" does not suggest any sort of strong nor obvious link. > That an Asian persons body has had the time to adapt to Soy does not mean it's safe for westerners immediately, it could be, but it equally could not be. I'm sorry, what? I do not keep up with the research, so I must have missed the papers which proved that Asian people's bodies process phytoestrogens - which, I might add, usually act as estrogen antagonists if they even do anything - in a radically different way than westerners.
  - dijit 4y ago
    Argument: “western people drank dairy for 10,000 years and soy for 50” To which someone adds: “Asian people at soy for 10,000 years and milk for 100” So my Response: “Asian people seem to be physiologically intolerant to milk, is it possible that Asian people are more tolerant to soy than western people in the same way that the inverse is true?” You: “MILK BAD SOY GOOD WHERE PROOF” Not trolling, really, But I feel like we’re following different interpretations of this thread.
    - mftrhu 4y ago
      > “Asian people seem to be physiologically intolerant to milk, is it possible that Asian people are more tolerant to soy than western people in the same way that the inverse is true?” > You: > “MILK BAD SOY GOOD WHERE PROOF” While I'm sure that your skill at logical leaps must be impressive, and bring you a lot of joy, I would caution against relying on it overmuch: you just took a series of logical tumble-off-a-cliff. The very premise - "beware of soy, for it might be to blame for low T in the west!" - is nonsensical, like using old papers loaded with "might" and "we don't understand things yet" to assert the existence of a strong and obvious link between the two. "Western people have only been drinking soy for 50 years" is also an incredibly weak argument, and jumping from that to "maybe Asian people just tolerate soy more" is - absent even minimal research that would at least suggest the possible existence of such a phenomena - just a way to castle up, and to refuse admitting that the argument(s) that led to this were flawed.

by em500 4y ago

dijit 4y ago

> What strong link? AFAICT your first reference says basically everything is unknown. The link literally says there's a link (as in, we need to investigate, there is some linkage here we don't understand) and it's understudied. it goes on to say: >> Research suggests that eating soy products might decrease FSH and LH in people who are premenopausal, which may impact fertility. And it might increase estrogen in people who are menopausal, leading to a reduction in menopausal symptoms. [..] It’s not yet understood how these changes could impact people who menstruate. Obviously this is affecting hormones >> Animal studies suggest there may be slight hormonal and reproductive changes in male mice when they are exposed to soy consistently throughout their entire lifetimes I'm arguing that we shouldn't jump on something until it's understood. > I think in countries like China and Asia those timelines are almost reversed. Yes, and China and Asia tends to be lactose intolerant, so what exactly is your point here? That an Asian persons body has had the time to adapt to Soy does not mean it's safe for westerners immediately, it could be, but it equally could not be.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
windexh8er 4y ago
>> I'm arguing that we shouldn't jump on something until it's understood. Canada redid their food guide without the aid of lobbying. What didn't make the cut was meats and dairy [0]. The entire revamp of their national food guide was rooted in evidence based science. Humans don't need dairy milk, soy/oat/almond milks. Drink more water. [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46964549 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46964549
- dijit 4y ago
  This is frustrating to contend with because I’m not actually arguing for dairy. I’m arguing against soy. And I’m not even arguing against soy, I’m arguing against taking soy at face value until we understand it better.
  - windexh8er 4y ago
    I had posted directly to that above. I think your original argument was misrepresentative of the hormonal links to soy. But it also does appear you're more pro-dairy, if that's not your argument that's fair. I would say it doesn't appear that way.
- bobthechef 4y ago
mftrhu 4y ago
What strong link? "[...] might decrease [...] might increase [...] may impact [...] it's not yet understood [...] there may be slight changes" does not suggest any sort of strong nor obvious link. > That an Asian persons body has had the time to adapt to Soy does not mean it's safe for westerners immediately, it could be, but it equally could not be. I'm sorry, what? I do not keep up with the research, so I must have missed the papers which proved that Asian people's bodies process phytoestrogens - which, I might add, usually act as estrogen antagonists if they even do anything - in a radically different way than westerners.
- dijit 4y ago
  Argument: “western people drank dairy for 10,000 years and soy for 50” To which someone adds: “Asian people at soy for 10,000 years and milk for 100” So my Response: “Asian people seem to be physiologically intolerant to milk, is it possible that Asian people are more tolerant to soy than western people in the same way that the inverse is true?” You: “MILK BAD SOY GOOD WHERE PROOF” Not trolling, really, But I feel like we’re following different interpretations of this thread.
  - mftrhu 4y ago
    > “Asian people seem to be physiologically intolerant to milk, is it possible that Asian people are more tolerant to soy than western people in the same way that the inverse is true?” > You: > “MILK BAD SOY GOOD WHERE PROOF” While I'm sure that your skill at logical leaps must be impressive, and bring you a lot of joy, I would caution against relying on it overmuch: you just took a series of logical tumble-off-a-cliff. The very premise - "beware of soy, for it might be to blame for low T in the west!" - is nonsensical, like using old papers loaded with "might" and "we don't understand things yet" to assert the existence of a strong and obvious link between the two. "Western people have only been drinking soy for 50 years" is also an incredibly weak argument, and jumping from that to "maybe Asian people just tolerate soy more" is - absent even minimal research that would at least suggest the possible existence of such a phenomena - just a way to castle up, and to refuse admitting that the argument(s) that led to this were flawed.