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I have an anecdote from one of my trips to Moscow (I also spent some time in Ukraine for two months and one week, Odessa and Lviv, respectively). This was the o

I have an anecdote from one of my trips to Moscow (I also spent some time in Ukraine for two months and one week, Odessa and Lviv, respectively). This was the one time I was there in winter. This was many years ago (10? 15?), but I have no reason to think the attitude behind what I describe have changed. I went on a walk not far from the Kremlin in early evening. Lots and lots of cars on the wintery multi-lane streets in the center of Moscow. For no reason whatsoever, on many major crossings with four lanes or more, when the other side had to stop because of red light the cars started occupying the opposing lanes(!!!). Yes, the ones for the traffic from the opposite direction, the one that would be needed a minute later when the traffic lights changed colors. Of course, this lead to total gridlock, because that happened on both sides. So, the started to also use the side walk(!?), for even more standstill gridlock. There they stood, and I saw this on several major crossings in the city center, facing one another, and no way to untangle this idiotic situation because nobody could move forward any more. There was no reason for any of this. Police did nothing. It happened every evening that I watched. Why on earth would you block the lanes for the opposite direction? Even assuming complete selfishness and disregard for others and accepting it, how could one possibly think that would help one get ahead faster? You could see the cars waiting on the other side of the traffic light, the ones whose path you are now blocking.

detritus 4y ago
Funnily enough, I have a few vaguely 'libertarian' (in a UK-sense) friends who don't see that if everyone broke societal 'politenesess'/manners as they do, ekeing a small personal advantage, then everything goes to shit. Sure, one or two do it and they can advance. Well done, them. Everyone does it and back in time we step. People forget that most manners were purely an invention of post-medieval society, not some naturally-inherent instinct. I feel as much about how Big SV Corps get forward, by externalising little bits of shit that the rest of society has to wipe off its collective face. Looking at you, Amazon.
- native_samples 4y ago
  This feels like some cartoon villain stereotype of a libertarian. Actual libertarians are big into contracts and contract law. They aren't against agreements, let alone politeness or manners. Heck one of the reasons I eventually became a libertarian (UK sense) myself was due to noticing how unfailingly polite and unassuming they all of were despite often being faced with the most vile hatred. Consider how nonsensical your comparison really is. The problem in question appears in Russia, a place where the largest official political alternative to Putin is the former Communist party. It's the opposite of a libertarian country. Places like New Hampshire or even relatively non libertarian places like the UK on the other hand, simply can't imagine behaviour like that. It's the whole reason it's an interesting anecdote to begin with.
  - detritus 4y ago
    If only I'd said something like "vaguely ‘libertarian’" to dismiss any notion of orthodoxy in the matter. Curiously, my good friend who most suffers from the what I accuse him here also holds himself in similarly-noble terms as you appear to. And yet... .
    - native_samples 4y ago
      I don't think prefixing the word vaguely would change anything about your point, which is about ideology and which doesn't make sense for logic reasons alone independent of personal views on whichever is preferable. You can't use people's social behavior in a formerly communist country (one that still has many communist approaches to things), to derive conclusions about libertarians i.e. the exact opposite kinds of people. Russia is like China, it's a nightmare society for libertarians. Nothing about it is libertarian.

detritus 4y ago

Funnily enough, I have a few vaguely 'libertarian' (in a UK-sense) friends who don't see that if everyone broke societal 'politenesess'/manners as they do, ekeing a small personal advantage, then everything goes to shit. Sure, one or two do it and they can advance. Well done, them. Everyone does it and back in time we step. People forget that most manners were purely an invention of post-medieval society, not some naturally-inherent instinct. I feel as much about how Big SV Corps get forward, by externalising little bits of shit that the rest of society has to wipe off its collective face. Looking at you, Amazon.

native_samples 4y ago
This feels like some cartoon villain stereotype of a libertarian. Actual libertarians are big into contracts and contract law. They aren't against agreements, let alone politeness or manners. Heck one of the reasons I eventually became a libertarian (UK sense) myself was due to noticing how unfailingly polite and unassuming they all of were despite often being faced with the most vile hatred. Consider how nonsensical your comparison really is. The problem in question appears in Russia, a place where the largest official political alternative to Putin is the former Communist party. It's the opposite of a libertarian country. Places like New Hampshire or even relatively non libertarian places like the UK on the other hand, simply can't imagine behaviour like that. It's the whole reason it's an interesting anecdote to begin with.
- detritus 4y ago
  If only I'd said something like "vaguely ‘libertarian’" to dismiss any notion of orthodoxy in the matter. Curiously, my good friend who most suffers from the what I accuse him here also holds himself in similarly-noble terms as you appear to. And yet... .
  - native_samples 4y ago
    I don't think prefixing the word vaguely would change anything about your point, which is about ideology and which doesn't make sense for logic reasons alone independent of personal views on whichever is preferable. You can't use people's social behavior in a formerly communist country (one that still has many communist approaches to things), to derive conclusions about libertarians i.e. the exact opposite kinds of people. Russia is like China, it's a nightmare society for libertarians. Nothing about it is libertarian.