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But a closely related story of "ship, go fuck yourself" was propaganda. The way it was told implied that solders died heroically, whereby they were taken pow an

by eps 4y ago

But a closely related story of "ship, go fuck yourself" was propaganda. The way it was told implied that solders died heroically, whereby they were taken pow and later returned to Ukraine. Propaganda works by selecting some facts and amplifying them, all the while hiding others. Note how Ukrainian military losses are never reported, for example. Photos of destroyed Russian tanks are all over the place, but not a single photo of destroyed Ukrainian equipment. The coverage is very selective to paint a specific picture.

foldr 4y ago
I’m not denying that Ukrainian propaganda exists. My point is that there is a huge amount of evidence that the war is going badly for Russia and that the Russian military has lacked competence. Oddly, lordnacho seems to suggest that they are less inclined to believe this the more evidence for it that they see. The mere fact that Ukraine still is not occupied by Russia tells you pretty much everything you need to know.
- ekianjo 4y ago
  > My point is that there is a huge amount of evidence that the war is going badly for Russia and that the Russian military has lacked competence. You can just copy-paste that comment for virtually every army out there. Ukraine is holding up because it is massively supplied with modern weapons that they never had in the first place by foreign powers: this is clearly a proxy war, not a bunch of peasants pushing back well-armed Russians.
  - foldr 4y ago
    You can’t copy and paste my comment for ‘every army out there’, as some armies are winning wars and aren’t incompetent. That’s such an odd thing to say that I almost feel you must have intended to write something else. I’m not sure what you’re getting at with the rest of your comment. Yes, Ukraine has Western aid. That doesn’t negate Russian incompetence or mean that Russia is somehow actually winning. For example, it doesn’t explain how the Moskva was unable to defend itself against a small number of current-generation sea-skimming missiles (a threat that’s been around for at least a couple of decades).
  - Const-me 4y ago
    This became true as the war continues. Wasn't the case in February. Western intelligence was expecting Russians to capture Kyiv within several days of the war [1] Therefore, western countries refused to supply heavy weapons. They remember the 7 billion of military equipment they supplied to Afghanistan [2] [1] https://www.newsweek.com/us-expects-kyiv-fall-days-ukraine-source-warns-encirclement-1682326 https://www.newsweek.com/us-expects-kyiv-fall-days-ukraine-s... [2] https://edition.cnn.com/2022/04/27/politics/afghan-weapons-left-behind/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2022/04/27/politics/afghan-weapons-l...
  - multjoy 4y ago
    The Ukrainian army has been massively scaled up since 2014, with western assistance. Remember, the Russian invasion already happened when they marched into the Crimea. This is just a continuation.
- eps 4y ago
  One doesn't need to read news to know that this war isn't going well. Trying to go against a nation that most Russians perceive as brotherly using an army comprising 16 year old conscripts ain't going to go well. Glaring motivation and morale issues, underpaid officers, rampant negligence, indifference and theft - ask any Russian and you will get an earful of how rotten the army is even during the peace time.
  - justsomehnguy 4y ago
    > army comprising 16 year old conscripts LOL? It's not like 18 y.o. are significantly older, but claiming they are 16? >> which is mandatory for all male citizens ages 18–27, with a number of exceptions
    - eps 4y ago
      The vast majority is still conscripted as early as possible. 18 or 16 - still kids :-/
  - wiseowise 4y ago
    > Trying to go against a nation that most Russians perceive as brotherly Brotherly, but not in equal sense. More like stupid little brother that can't take care of himself. It is widely known that Russians, for some reason, consider themselves superior out of all Eastern Europe Slavs.
    - eps 4y ago
      That's just not true. Leave alone being "widely known". The stupid (or rather gullible/inane) angle is a fairly recent government spin to justify the aggression.
      - wiseowise 4y ago
        Are you Russian? Or just plain ignorant? > The stupid (or rather gullible/inane) angle is a fairly recent government spin to justify the aggression. By "recent" you mean since imperial time?
mellow-lake-day 4y ago
>But a closely related story of "ship, go fuck yourself" was propaganda. The way it was told implied that solders died heroically, whereby they were taken pow and later returned to Ukraine. That was because after the soldiers said that the feed got cut off and Ukraine didn't hear back from the soldiers until Russia said they were captured. So up until as it was revealed they were captured, the worst was assumed. >but not a single photo of destroyed Ukrainian equipment There are many photos like this, did you even bother to look? Oryx's blog for example has 1,040 photos of destroyed/captured Ukrainian equipment
- eps 4y ago
  > There are many photos like this Not in the mainstream press.
  - wiseowise 4y ago
    And?
- spacemanmatt 4y ago
  To the extent that I want Ukraine to win, I'm also ok with western media joining their propaganda effort.
  - zasdffaa 4y ago
    I'd prefer to be given the truth. Explicitly asking to be deceived, well I can't understand that.
    - spacemanmatt 4y ago
      Yeah, that's never been the way journalism works, though. Read multiple sources, figure out what truth you believe you can infer. That's all there is. Tolerating propaganda from friendly sources who are at war is hardly asking to be deceived.
      - 4y ago

by eps 4y ago

foldr 4y ago

I’m not denying that Ukrainian propaganda exists. My point is that there is a huge amount of evidence that the war is going badly for Russia and that the Russian military has lacked competence. Oddly, lordnacho seems to suggest that they are less inclined to believe this the more evidence for it that they see. The mere fact that Ukraine still is not occupied by Russia tells you pretty much everything you need to know.

ekianjo 4y ago
> My point is that there is a huge amount of evidence that the war is going badly for Russia and that the Russian military has lacked competence. You can just copy-paste that comment for virtually every army out there. Ukraine is holding up because it is massively supplied with modern weapons that they never had in the first place by foreign powers: this is clearly a proxy war, not a bunch of peasants pushing back well-armed Russians.
- foldr 4y ago
  You can’t copy and paste my comment for ‘every army out there’, as some armies are winning wars and aren’t incompetent. That’s such an odd thing to say that I almost feel you must have intended to write something else. I’m not sure what you’re getting at with the rest of your comment. Yes, Ukraine has Western aid. That doesn’t negate Russian incompetence or mean that Russia is somehow actually winning. For example, it doesn’t explain how the Moskva was unable to defend itself against a small number of current-generation sea-skimming missiles (a threat that’s been around for at least a couple of decades).
- Const-me 4y ago
  This became true as the war continues. Wasn't the case in February. Western intelligence was expecting Russians to capture Kyiv within several days of the war [1] Therefore, western countries refused to supply heavy weapons. They remember the 7 billion of military equipment they supplied to Afghanistan [2] [1] https://www.newsweek.com/us-expects-kyiv-fall-days-ukraine-source-warns-encirclement-1682326 https://www.newsweek.com/us-expects-kyiv-fall-days-ukraine-s... [2] https://edition.cnn.com/2022/04/27/politics/afghan-weapons-left-behind/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2022/04/27/politics/afghan-weapons-l...
- multjoy 4y ago
  The Ukrainian army has been massively scaled up since 2014, with western assistance. Remember, the Russian invasion already happened when they marched into the Crimea. This is just a continuation.
eps 4y ago
One doesn't need to read news to know that this war isn't going well. Trying to go against a nation that most Russians perceive as brotherly using an army comprising 16 year old conscripts ain't going to go well. Glaring motivation and morale issues, underpaid officers, rampant negligence, indifference and theft - ask any Russian and you will get an earful of how rotten the army is even during the peace time.
- justsomehnguy 4y ago
  > army comprising 16 year old conscripts LOL? It's not like 18 y.o. are significantly older, but claiming they are 16? >> which is mandatory for all male citizens ages 18–27, with a number of exceptions
  - eps 4y ago
    The vast majority is still conscripted as early as possible. 18 or 16 - still kids :-/
- wiseowise 4y ago
  > Trying to go against a nation that most Russians perceive as brotherly Brotherly, but not in equal sense. More like stupid little brother that can't take care of himself. It is widely known that Russians, for some reason, consider themselves superior out of all Eastern Europe Slavs.
  - eps 4y ago
    That's just not true. Leave alone being "widely known". The stupid (or rather gullible/inane) angle is a fairly recent government spin to justify the aggression.
    - wiseowise 4y ago
      Are you Russian? Or just plain ignorant? > The stupid (or rather gullible/inane) angle is a fairly recent government spin to justify the aggression. By "recent" you mean since imperial time?

mellow-lake-day 4y ago

>But a closely related story of "ship, go fuck yourself" was propaganda. The way it was told implied that solders died heroically, whereby they were taken pow and later returned to Ukraine. That was because after the soldiers said that the feed got cut off and Ukraine didn't hear back from the soldiers until Russia said they were captured. So up until as it was revealed they were captured, the worst was assumed. >but not a single photo of destroyed Ukrainian equipment There are many photos like this, did you even bother to look? Oryx's blog for example has 1,040 photos of destroyed/captured Ukrainian equipment

eps 4y ago
> There are many photos like this Not in the mainstream press.
- wiseowise 4y ago
  And?
spacemanmatt 4y ago
To the extent that I want Ukraine to win, I'm also ok with western media joining their propaganda effort.
- zasdffaa 4y ago
  I'd prefer to be given the truth. Explicitly asking to be deceived, well I can't understand that.
  - spacemanmatt 4y ago
    Yeah, that's never been the way journalism works, though. Read multiple sources, figure out what truth you believe you can infer. That's all there is. Tolerating propaganda from friendly sources who are at war is hardly asking to be deceived.
    - 4y ago