4 ms·

Those are two separate issues which both can be solved independently. We can simultaneously overturn SFH zoning and also aggressively deport illegal immigrants.

turtledove 4y ago
We could, or we could not deport humans and solve housing and probably be even better off...
- ceeplusplus 4y ago
  Those illegal immigrants are here at the cost of the wages of legal citizens. If no legal citizens wanted to work for farmers, two things would happen, wages would go up (a lot), and investment in automation would go up. Both of those things are positives for the US economy and average unskilled US citizen. Food prices will go up, but I don't think they'll go up as much as you think as labor has never been the biggest component of farming costs. People don't have a right to live in the US just because they decided to walk across the border illegally.
  - turtledove 4y ago
    > Those illegal immigrants are here at the cost of the wages of legal citizens. No they aren't. This is xenophobic claptrap. Or at least it isn't self evident they are, and you've failed to provide any evidence they are.
    - teakettle42 4y ago
      From your other comments, it seems like you believe that housing prices are subject to supply and demand; is that accurate? As in, failure to build enough supply for demand has driven up prices? Do you also believe that labor is subject to the same forces of supply and demand?
      - turtledove 4y ago
        Only if we let it. A workers coop doesn't engage in a labor market, it pays everyone an equal portion of the company's profit. And I'm pretty sure we could absorb a lot more labor and have a stronger safety net for the folks who currently need to work three jobs to make ends meet. Closing borders really only tackles a high level symptom. If we're not excited to have more help building society, we're doing something wrong.
        teakettle42 4y ago
        This is an evasive response. Simply put, do you believe that increasing the labor supply, in the reality that exists today, is subject to the law of supply and demand, or not? If so, then aren't you agreeing that the parent commentator is actually correct? If not, why not?
        turtledove 4y ago
        I do not believe it's subject to supply and demand. For several reasons. Labor is not fungible, even so called unskilled labor is actually quite skilled and requires significant training. (Put me in a strawberry field and I guarantee I'll be slower and worse then existing workers.) Several sectors are struggling to hire workers, and have been for a long time. But until the pandemic, they really didn't see much increase in pay, despite demand. We have regulated price minimums on labor. Unions exist, and can ensure increased labor pool doesn't dilute pay. The number of immigrants is small relative to the number of working Americans. And the rate of their arrival is slow. Also, we require working people to have work visas, further limiting the number of people who can impact labor pool.
  - kelnos 4y ago
    > People don't have a right to live in the US just because they decided to walk across the border illegally. This is invented nonsense. It would be just as reasonable to say "People don't have the right to live in the US just because they were lucky enough to be born there" or "People don't have the right to live in the US just because their parents were US citizens" or whatever. "Walking across a border illegally" is an imaginary thing we made up because some people (probably xenophobic people) thought it was a good idea at some point in the past. I don't think unrestricted immigration is necessarily the answer either, but the system as it is clearly does not work.
    - teakettle42 4y ago
      Nearly all laws are purely inventions designed towards a particular outcome. That doesn’t mean they’re nonsense, or that instituting the opposite of current laws would be “just as reasonable”. The system as it is does work. Could it work better? Sure. Perhaps we could actually strictly enforce immigration laws, and the result would be ideal. You can argue against the idea of community membership being predicated on more than just showing up, but simply calling it “xenophobia” isn’t an argument. Furthermore, when one side is doing everything possible to undermine the established laws, it’s not convincing when they point out the resulting reduced efficacy as if it were an inherent flaw instead of their own doing.
- BitwiseFool 4y ago
  >" We could, or we could not deport humans and solve housing and probably be even better off... " This feels good to say, but it assumes there are no downsides whatsoever with no longer having deportation as an option and that we can 'solve' housing. I personally think we can make housing better but housing issues have existed in every civilization throughout recorded history. I can't help but think it's an emergent phenomenon when you get plenty of people living together in a world where land is limited and two pieces of matter cannot occupy the same space at the same time. Not that we shouldn't try to help, but the issue will never truly go away. And, letting anyone who steps foot into your country stay for as long as they like seems like a recipe for creating housing demand that can never keep up with supply.
ixtli 4y ago
The amount of money made by owners off of the labor of those undocumented people is strong evidence that we're throwing out a very valuable resource if we aggressively deport people.

turtledove 4y ago

We could, or we could not deport humans and solve housing and probably be even better off...

ceeplusplus 4y ago
Those illegal immigrants are here at the cost of the wages of legal citizens. If no legal citizens wanted to work for farmers, two things would happen, wages would go up (a lot), and investment in automation would go up. Both of those things are positives for the US economy and average unskilled US citizen. Food prices will go up, but I don't think they'll go up as much as you think as labor has never been the biggest component of farming costs. People don't have a right to live in the US just because they decided to walk across the border illegally.
- turtledove 4y ago
  > Those illegal immigrants are here at the cost of the wages of legal citizens. No they aren't. This is xenophobic claptrap. Or at least it isn't self evident they are, and you've failed to provide any evidence they are.
  - teakettle42 4y ago
    From your other comments, it seems like you believe that housing prices are subject to supply and demand; is that accurate? As in, failure to build enough supply for demand has driven up prices? Do you also believe that labor is subject to the same forces of supply and demand?
    - turtledove 4y ago
      Only if we let it. A workers coop doesn't engage in a labor market, it pays everyone an equal portion of the company's profit. And I'm pretty sure we could absorb a lot more labor and have a stronger safety net for the folks who currently need to work three jobs to make ends meet. Closing borders really only tackles a high level symptom. If we're not excited to have more help building society, we're doing something wrong.
      - teakettle42 4y ago
        This is an evasive response. Simply put, do you believe that increasing the labor supply, in the reality that exists today, is subject to the law of supply and demand, or not? If so, then aren't you agreeing that the parent commentator is actually correct? If not, why not?
        turtledove 4y ago
        I do not believe it's subject to supply and demand. For several reasons. Labor is not fungible, even so called unskilled labor is actually quite skilled and requires significant training. (Put me in a strawberry field and I guarantee I'll be slower and worse then existing workers.) Several sectors are struggling to hire workers, and have been for a long time. But until the pandemic, they really didn't see much increase in pay, despite demand. We have regulated price minimums on labor. Unions exist, and can ensure increased labor pool doesn't dilute pay. The number of immigrants is small relative to the number of working Americans. And the rate of their arrival is slow. Also, we require working people to have work visas, further limiting the number of people who can impact labor pool.
- kelnos 4y ago
  > People don't have a right to live in the US just because they decided to walk across the border illegally. This is invented nonsense. It would be just as reasonable to say "People don't have the right to live in the US just because they were lucky enough to be born there" or "People don't have the right to live in the US just because their parents were US citizens" or whatever. "Walking across a border illegally" is an imaginary thing we made up because some people (probably xenophobic people) thought it was a good idea at some point in the past. I don't think unrestricted immigration is necessarily the answer either, but the system as it is clearly does not work.
  - teakettle42 4y ago
    Nearly all laws are purely inventions designed towards a particular outcome. That doesn’t mean they’re nonsense, or that instituting the opposite of current laws would be “just as reasonable”. The system as it is does work. Could it work better? Sure. Perhaps we could actually strictly enforce immigration laws, and the result would be ideal. You can argue against the idea of community membership being predicated on more than just showing up, but simply calling it “xenophobia” isn’t an argument. Furthermore, when one side is doing everything possible to undermine the established laws, it’s not convincing when they point out the resulting reduced efficacy as if it were an inherent flaw instead of their own doing.
BitwiseFool 4y ago
>" We could, or we could not deport humans and solve housing and probably be even better off... " This feels good to say, but it assumes there are no downsides whatsoever with no longer having deportation as an option and that we can 'solve' housing. I personally think we can make housing better but housing issues have existed in every civilization throughout recorded history. I can't help but think it's an emergent phenomenon when you get plenty of people living together in a world where land is limited and two pieces of matter cannot occupy the same space at the same time. Not that we shouldn't try to help, but the issue will never truly go away. And, letting anyone who steps foot into your country stay for as long as they like seems like a recipe for creating housing demand that can never keep up with supply.

ixtli 4y ago

The amount of money made by owners off of the labor of those undocumented people is strong evidence that we're throwing out a very valuable resource if we aggressively deport people.