7 ms·

Data-Driven Deportation in the 21st Century

63 points by em3rgent0rdr 4y ago

sieabahlpark 4y ago
It wouldn't need to if we just enforced the existing laws at the border.
- turtledove 4y ago
  Or repealed those laws.
- nopenoperope 4y ago
  How so? Visa overstays have accounted for the majority of illegal immigration for over a decade now (62% vs 38% for border crossing as of 2019).
  - barbacoa 4y ago
    Those are 2019 numbers. There has been a massive upsurge in illegal crossing starting in 2020. Many have attributed that surge to the Biden administration new catch and release policy. People who are caught at the border now are bussed to the closest major city and told to go to immigration court hearing -- which most just skip. https://www.statista.com/chart/20326/mexicans-non-mexcians-apprehended-at-southern-us-border/ https://www.statista.com/chart/20326/mexicans-non-mexcians-a...
- michaelbrave 4y ago
  hardly anyone actually crosses a border illegally, almost all illegal immigrants came via legal means and stayed beyond the time limits. By almost all I mean literally almost all. The real solution is to hit employers that employ them, as how many people are in this counry illegally has very little to do with actual border control(meaning watching the border).
  - ixtli 4y ago
    This simple reality gets overlooked all the time. A large portion of labor in this country is undocumented. The employers, whos existence depends on this and related labor abuses, are rarely if ever held accountable and its the people DOING the work who get abused.
  - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
    If nopenoperope can be believed, it was 62% overstays and 38% illegal crossings in 2019. That's the majority, but it's not "literally almost all".
    - michaelbrave 4y ago
      It's hard to measure as those stats are for those who are newly coming and most undocumented immigrants have been here more than 10+ years, also many go under the radar. That said I did make a mistake, I had read somewhere it was above 90% but on searching again it was referring to "non-central america undocumenteds" not all as a whole. But that doesn't change that hardly anyone comes wandering through a desert and climbing over a wall/fence.
- doh 4y ago
  I'm sorry, but can you expand on this claim? Do you believe that laws are not enforced at the border? Do the agents let anyone in or what is your believe that is happening? Just FYI I live close to the border and go often there and it's swarming with officers, all cars are being checked even when on the US side and crossing the border is quite an ordeal even if you are a citizen forget being an immigrant.
  - barbacoa 4y ago
    >>Do the agents let anyone in or what is your believe that is happening? What happens is, Immigrants will come to the border and claim asylum then once they're in the country skip the asylum court hearing. The judge issues a deportation order but by then there is no way to find them.
    - WalterGR 4y ago
      What percentage do that?
      - barbacoa 4y ago
        The 2019 numbers were 90% per the DHS. https://nypost.com/2019/06/11/homeland-security-chief-says-90-of-asylum-seekers-miss-court-dates/ https://nypost.com/2019/06/11/homeland-security-chief-says-9...
        WalterGR 4y ago
        Sorry, I meant: what percentage of all illegal immigrants do what you describe?
- hedora 4y ago
  It’s true that we don’t enforce the law at the borders. ICE agents get caught engaging in illegal human rights abuses all the time, but nothing changes. Also, most people that cross at the Mexican border have legitimate asylum claims, but the US has intentionally defunded the judicial system, leading to camps and long wait times. Disbanding / defunding the courts is pretty much the definition of not enforcing the law. However, I’m not sure how ICE warrantlessly surveilling US citizens is related to any of this. Unsolicited tip: If you want to sneak into the US illegally (and don’t want to bother with getting a visa to overstay), then come in along the East Coast, West Coast, Hawaii, Puerto Rico or Canada. Those places don’t have names that sound like “Mexican”, so conservative politicians don’t really bother funding border security for them. Thanks to tourism, this is particularly true of Puerto Rico and Hawaii. This is what the vast majority of illegal immigrants do. Most scenarios where coming in via Mexico makes sense involve intentionally being detained in order to apply for asylum.
ceeplusplus 4y ago
Seems quite biased, considering they call for "Congress [to] significantly reduce the number of people subject to deportation by—for example—creating a pathway to citizenship for undocumented people, dramatically [reduce] the grounds of removability that are based on criminal legal involvement, and [enact] a statute of limitations on deportations" Some people might argue that we should be dedicating our scarce housing resources towards expanding the number of legal immigrants with high value skills, not uneducated illegal immigrants, and that illegal immigrants deserve to be deported for entering the country illegally.
- trasz 4y ago
  Housing is scarce because of investors buying it and then effectively wasting it, not because there are too many people.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - RHSeeger 4y ago
    You're oversimplifying with that statement. There are many reasons why housing is scarce, and that is only one of them. - Existing homeowners trying to prevent denser/more housing - Regulations and codes that make building much more expensive - (As you noted) existing housing being wasted as an investment and I'm sure there's much more.
- turtledove 4y ago
  This is a false dichotomy, how we allocate housing is the wrong framing. The problem is that that housing is in any way a scarce resource. Solve that problem instead.
  - ceeplusplus 4y ago
    Those are two separate issues which both can be solved independently. We can simultaneously overturn SFH zoning and also aggressively deport illegal immigrants.
colemannugent 4y ago
Keeping with ancient Solomonic tradition, I say we deport some top ICE officials until they knock it off.
- ixtli 4y ago
  They participate in the operation of concentration camps at the southern border so I believe they are deserving of more harsh judgement.
  - teakettle42 4y ago
    Please go physically visit Auschwitz, tour the grounds and museum exhibits illustrating the genuine horrors perpetuated there, and then see if your offensively ignorant misuse of the term "concentration camp" still seems appropriate to you. If you can't visit in person, then start here: http://www.auschwitz.org/en/gallery/exhibits/evidence-of-crimes,1.html http://www.auschwitz.org/en/gallery/exhibits/evidence-of-cri...
    - ixtli 4y ago
      I am a Jew and I have studied this and visited camps. I just visited the site of one in France. It is quite clear that needing to separate what has happened to children and families on the southern border from that which happened to, say, the Roma during the Reich is suspicious. No one will be held accountable. History will eventually regard the imperialist behavior of the US quite negatively. This is no comparison to Hitler’s Germany but it’s intellectually dishonest to ignore that they designed the racial Nuremberg laws on Jim Crow America. Racism, segregation, and the like are an intrinsic part of American history and one of its exports. We built concentration camps for Japanese during the war and nothing came of that either.
      - teakettle42 4y ago
        > History will eventually regard the imperialist behavior of the US quite negatively. What exactly is imperialist about border and immigration enforcement within the United States?
ixtli 4y ago
It has always been conspicuous to me how vocal most Americans are about wanting personal privacy AND about wanting “smaller” government but at the same time not doing much of anything when things like this, the Snowden leaks, and etc come out. We spend very, very large amounts of money on this and if you listen to pundits it’s not doing anything because the “crisis” of “illegal” immigration is always getting worse. It reminds me very much of backscatter machines at the airport and the insistence that we don’t bring bottles larger than 3 or 4 oz on a flight.
- turtledove 4y ago
  In general, folks who are asking for a small government aren't actually asking for a small government. They are asking for the government to reallocate to the things they care about and away from the things they don't. "Small government" is just a pleasing label that is more marketable for their priorities.
  - ixtli 4y ago
    I generally agree that the people you’re talking about are unique in how they obfuscate their intentions when they talk about this stuff. It’s always parsing slogans and decoding in-group concepts.
  - libraryatnight 4y ago
    My in-laws all wear t-shirts that say things like "Get in, we're doing freedom and shit" with a picture of some founding fathers in sunglasses, or that simply say "FREEDOM" with a flag, or a 1776 in red white and blue etc. They also believe in the drug war (the smattering of drug problems among them is an irony I'll save for another comment I guess), they believe in walls, and a police force with near absolute power (because the good guys are the good guys, what could go wrong?). They're fine with protestors being arrested, and if they're roughed up a little bit in the process that's OK too. They're good with banning books in schools that might be "indecent." Anyway, I agree. To them, and I would count them in the demo you describe, "Freedom" is just a logo and "small government" is just a meaningless slogan. It has more to do with their specific cultural and moral fears.
MarkMarine 4y ago
Regardless of what you think about legal or illegal immigration, the use of the drivers license data is seems like quite a violation. The states that do this to setup all people in the states with driver's licenses so that they are: 1. meeting the minimum bar for being a safe driver. 2. driving a registered and insured car that meets the laws of the state. This is good for citizens, I've been hit by someone driving an unregistered, uninsured car who was undocumented and it was a nightmare to deal with. I had to eat the cost of fixing my bike, and luckily I was covered by the military health insurance for my injuries or that would have been exponentially worse. Using this data for immigration enforcement pushes drivers back to the illegal, unregistered, uninsured situation that existed before. It puts a tax on regular citizens who are following the rules.

63 points by em3rgent0rdr 4y ago

sieabahlpark 4y ago

It wouldn't need to if we just enforced the existing laws at the border.

turtledove 4y ago
Or repealed those laws.
nopenoperope 4y ago
How so? Visa overstays have accounted for the majority of illegal immigration for over a decade now (62% vs 38% for border crossing as of 2019).
- barbacoa 4y ago
  Those are 2019 numbers. There has been a massive upsurge in illegal crossing starting in 2020. Many have attributed that surge to the Biden administration new catch and release policy. People who are caught at the border now are bussed to the closest major city and told to go to immigration court hearing -- which most just skip. https://www.statista.com/chart/20326/mexicans-non-mexcians-apprehended-at-southern-us-border/ https://www.statista.com/chart/20326/mexicans-non-mexcians-a...
michaelbrave 4y ago
hardly anyone actually crosses a border illegally, almost all illegal immigrants came via legal means and stayed beyond the time limits. By almost all I mean literally almost all. The real solution is to hit employers that employ them, as how many people are in this counry illegally has very little to do with actual border control(meaning watching the border).
- ixtli 4y ago
  This simple reality gets overlooked all the time. A large portion of labor in this country is undocumented. The employers, whos existence depends on this and related labor abuses, are rarely if ever held accountable and its the people DOING the work who get abused.
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  If nopenoperope can be believed, it was 62% overstays and 38% illegal crossings in 2019. That's the majority, but it's not "literally almost all".
  - michaelbrave 4y ago
    It's hard to measure as those stats are for those who are newly coming and most undocumented immigrants have been here more than 10+ years, also many go under the radar. That said I did make a mistake, I had read somewhere it was above 90% but on searching again it was referring to "non-central america undocumenteds" not all as a whole. But that doesn't change that hardly anyone comes wandering through a desert and climbing over a wall/fence.
doh 4y ago
I'm sorry, but can you expand on this claim? Do you believe that laws are not enforced at the border? Do the agents let anyone in or what is your believe that is happening? Just FYI I live close to the border and go often there and it's swarming with officers, all cars are being checked even when on the US side and crossing the border is quite an ordeal even if you are a citizen forget being an immigrant.
- barbacoa 4y ago
  >>Do the agents let anyone in or what is your believe that is happening? What happens is, Immigrants will come to the border and claim asylum then once they're in the country skip the asylum court hearing. The judge issues a deportation order but by then there is no way to find them.
  - WalterGR 4y ago
    What percentage do that?
    - barbacoa 4y ago
      The 2019 numbers were 90% per the DHS. https://nypost.com/2019/06/11/homeland-security-chief-says-90-of-asylum-seekers-miss-court-dates/ https://nypost.com/2019/06/11/homeland-security-chief-says-9...
      - WalterGR 4y ago
        Sorry, I meant: what percentage of all illegal immigrants do what you describe?
hedora 4y ago
It’s true that we don’t enforce the law at the borders. ICE agents get caught engaging in illegal human rights abuses all the time, but nothing changes. Also, most people that cross at the Mexican border have legitimate asylum claims, but the US has intentionally defunded the judicial system, leading to camps and long wait times. Disbanding / defunding the courts is pretty much the definition of not enforcing the law. However, I’m not sure how ICE warrantlessly surveilling US citizens is related to any of this. Unsolicited tip: If you want to sneak into the US illegally (and don’t want to bother with getting a visa to overstay), then come in along the East Coast, West Coast, Hawaii, Puerto Rico or Canada. Those places don’t have names that sound like “Mexican”, so conservative politicians don’t really bother funding border security for them. Thanks to tourism, this is particularly true of Puerto Rico and Hawaii. This is what the vast majority of illegal immigrants do. Most scenarios where coming in via Mexico makes sense involve intentionally being detained in order to apply for asylum.

ceeplusplus 4y ago

Seems quite biased, considering they call for "Congress [to] significantly reduce the number of people subject to deportation by—for example—creating a pathway to citizenship for undocumented people, dramatically [reduce] the grounds of removability that are based on criminal legal involvement, and [enact] a statute of limitations on deportations" Some people might argue that we should be dedicating our scarce housing resources towards expanding the number of legal immigrants with high value skills, not uneducated illegal immigrants, and that illegal immigrants deserve to be deported for entering the country illegally.

trasz 4y ago
Housing is scarce because of investors buying it and then effectively wasting it, not because there are too many people.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- RHSeeger 4y ago
  You're oversimplifying with that statement. There are many reasons why housing is scarce, and that is only one of them. - Existing homeowners trying to prevent denser/more housing - Regulations and codes that make building much more expensive - (As you noted) existing housing being wasted as an investment and I'm sure there's much more.
turtledove 4y ago
This is a false dichotomy, how we allocate housing is the wrong framing. The problem is that that housing is in any way a scarce resource. Solve that problem instead.
- ceeplusplus 4y ago
  Those are two separate issues which both can be solved independently. We can simultaneously overturn SFH zoning and also aggressively deport illegal immigrants.

colemannugent 4y ago

Keeping with ancient Solomonic tradition, I say we deport some top ICE officials until they knock it off.

ixtli 4y ago
They participate in the operation of concentration camps at the southern border so I believe they are deserving of more harsh judgement.
- teakettle42 4y ago
  Please go physically visit Auschwitz, tour the grounds and museum exhibits illustrating the genuine horrors perpetuated there, and then see if your offensively ignorant misuse of the term "concentration camp" still seems appropriate to you. If you can't visit in person, then start here: http://www.auschwitz.org/en/gallery/exhibits/evidence-of-crimes,1.html http://www.auschwitz.org/en/gallery/exhibits/evidence-of-cri...
  - ixtli 4y ago
    I am a Jew and I have studied this and visited camps. I just visited the site of one in France. It is quite clear that needing to separate what has happened to children and families on the southern border from that which happened to, say, the Roma during the Reich is suspicious. No one will be held accountable. History will eventually regard the imperialist behavior of the US quite negatively. This is no comparison to Hitler’s Germany but it’s intellectually dishonest to ignore that they designed the racial Nuremberg laws on Jim Crow America. Racism, segregation, and the like are an intrinsic part of American history and one of its exports. We built concentration camps for Japanese during the war and nothing came of that either.
    - teakettle42 4y ago
      > History will eventually regard the imperialist behavior of the US quite negatively. What exactly is imperialist about border and immigration enforcement within the United States?

ixtli 4y ago

It has always been conspicuous to me how vocal most Americans are about wanting personal privacy AND about wanting “smaller” government but at the same time not doing much of anything when things like this, the Snowden leaks, and etc come out. We spend very, very large amounts of money on this and if you listen to pundits it’s not doing anything because the “crisis” of “illegal” immigration is always getting worse. It reminds me very much of backscatter machines at the airport and the insistence that we don’t bring bottles larger than 3 or 4 oz on a flight.

turtledove 4y ago
In general, folks who are asking for a small government aren't actually asking for a small government. They are asking for the government to reallocate to the things they care about and away from the things they don't. "Small government" is just a pleasing label that is more marketable for their priorities.
- ixtli 4y ago
  I generally agree that the people you’re talking about are unique in how they obfuscate their intentions when they talk about this stuff. It’s always parsing slogans and decoding in-group concepts.
- libraryatnight 4y ago
  My in-laws all wear t-shirts that say things like "Get in, we're doing freedom and shit" with a picture of some founding fathers in sunglasses, or that simply say "FREEDOM" with a flag, or a 1776 in red white and blue etc. They also believe in the drug war (the smattering of drug problems among them is an irony I'll save for another comment I guess), they believe in walls, and a police force with near absolute power (because the good guys are the good guys, what could go wrong?). They're fine with protestors being arrested, and if they're roughed up a little bit in the process that's OK too. They're good with banning books in schools that might be "indecent." Anyway, I agree. To them, and I would count them in the demo you describe, "Freedom" is just a logo and "small government" is just a meaningless slogan. It has more to do with their specific cultural and moral fears.

MarkMarine 4y ago

Regardless of what you think about legal or illegal immigration, the use of the drivers license data is seems like quite a violation. The states that do this to setup all people in the states with driver's licenses so that they are: 1. meeting the minimum bar for being a safe driver. 2. driving a registered and insured car that meets the laws of the state. This is good for citizens, I've been hit by someone driving an unregistered, uninsured car who was undocumented and it was a nightmare to deal with. I had to eat the cost of fixing my bike, and luckily I was covered by the military health insurance for my injuries or that would have been exponentially worse. Using this data for immigration enforcement pushes drivers back to the illegal, unregistered, uninsured situation that existed before. It puts a tax on regular citizens who are following the rules.