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"the only way to make truly meaningful reductions is to limit water use by agriculture. If that happens, it would be hard on farming communities (and on those o

"the only way to make truly meaningful reductions is to limit water use by agriculture. If that happens, it would be hard on farming communities (and on those of us who, at least occasionally, try to eat the way Michael Pollan and Alice Waters say we should), but the monetary impact within the state would be smaller than most people might guess, since agriculture accounts for no more than about two per cent of California’s economy." I wish this article had gone in to more detail about this. Which are the most water-intensive types of agriculture? What would limiting water use in these types of agriculture look like? In what ways could water be conserved there, what concrete impacts will it have (both on the agriculture industry, on consumers, and on the water supply), and what are the obstacles to implementing such conservation?

Avicebron 4y ago
A brief google search listed pasture, almonds, alfalfa, citrus and vineyards among some others. I'm fairly certain California has significant citrus, almonds, and vineyards. I'm not sure about the pasture although I can imagine there has to be some.
- bombcar 4y ago
  In 2015 California had 5.2 million head of cattle, 9% of the US. 70% of the alfalfa crop goes to those cows. Another source [1] indicates 38 million acres (half owned by the federal government as BLM land I guess) is range and pasture land. It is likely possible that water use could be reduced without completely turning off agriculture entirely, but it would require rebalancing the US agriculture market as a whole, and potentially reconsidering growing ethanol corn where water is plenty and instead grow more "edible" crops. [1] https://calcattlemen.org/ranching-in-california/ https://calcattlemen.org/ranching-in-california/
  - throwawayboise 4y ago
    Using corn for ethanol fuel is bone-headed. That's among the first things we should quit doing. It's a convoluted subsidy for corn farmers, nothing more. As an energy supply it's net-negative.
    - bumby 4y ago
      It was the intent of the subsidies to give some level of energy independence in the wake of the OPEC oil crisis, right? Is your stance that is no longer needed because of fracking, etc.? Unfortunately, subsidies have a habit of sticking around past their usefulness. My favorite is alpaca subsidies enacted to ensure cold-weather gear was available during the Korean War. It stuck around until the 1990s I believe.
    - rjmunro 4y ago
      This is certainly true, but what could the corn farmers do instead that would use less water? In Europe they pay farmers to look after land and specifically not grow crops on it. Maybe something like that is needed in California.
- bonestamp2 4y ago
  There is a surprising amount (at least to me). Driving between LA and San Francisco there are a significant amount of pastures that can be seen from the freeway (coastal and central valley). That's just what you can see from the freeway and it's far more than I would have expected.
- eschulz 4y ago
  What are the most water-intensive forms of agriculture per calorie produced? Which are the most water-intensive forms of agricultural commodities per dollar of value produced?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
codenesium 4y ago
It probably makes a huge difference how the irrigation is applied. Flooding land with water or digging trenches and running water to crops is a lot less efficient than drip emitters on each plant. Obviously doesn't work for stuff like alfalfa but they shouldn't be growing that anyway...
- jeffbee 4y ago
  Flooding rice fields in Glenn County is essentially 100% efficient because all of the water returns to the Sacramento River or recharges aquifers. Watering orchards in west Fresno County returns all of the water to the atmosphere via transpiration. Even though superficially a rice field looks wasteful, they are on two opposite extremes.
  - codenesium 4y ago
    How does returning it to the river solve the problem of their isn't enough groundwater? That water goes back into the ocean where it's stuck if it never rains.
    - jeffbee 4y ago
      Yeah but that's not really what happens to Sacramento River water. It's all diverted downstream for other uses. The Tracy pumps that raise the water from the delta into the aqueduct are the largest energy consumer in the state.
  - SamBam 4y ago
    Doesn't a large percentage of the water flooding a rice field in Glenn County still evaporate, both before it enters the plants/aquifer, and later through transpiration? I don't know the percentages (but would love to learn) but it's certainly not zero.
    - jeffbee 4y ago
      Sure, but the denominator for flooded irrigation is huge, so the efficiency is high. That's why flooding is a superficial and not substantial problem. The plant transpires water at a certain rate and a certain density per ground area. That rate isn't influenced by whether the field is flooded or drip-irrigated. By the way flooding also provides wildlife habitat. Anyway I'm just tired of the meme about growing rice in a desert. California rice country isn't a desert, it exists in places that were annually flooded before flood control engineering, and should still get flooded for various reasons. It is not a waste of water.
asdff 4y ago
Some water intensive crops like alfalfa are simply exported to global markets and are not even used for the domestic food supply. We have a water scarce region and plenty are in the business of exporting this water. IMO using a gallon of water on a lawn you can lay on here in CA is better than watering alfalfa that will be shipped across the ocean to feed a pig for a day in China. We can have an export market but we should set that up where there is plenty of water to export, not where there is currently a drought due to these exports and wasteful (read: cheap and/or highly profitable for the land owner) agricultural practices employed thanks to permissive water rights laws.
- kolanos 4y ago
  > Based on USDA data for 2021, only 3.9% of all U.S. hay produced and 6.4% of all alfalfa hay entered the export market. [0] [0] https://hayandforage.com/article-3825-year-end-hay-exports-set-new-records.html https://hayandforage.com/article-3825-year-end-hay-exports-s...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - Sakos 4y ago
    How much of Californian alfalfa is exported?
    - shagie 4y ago
      There's an article about it: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/25/california-water-drought-scarce-saudi-arabia https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/25/california-w... > Massive industrial storehouses line the southern end of town, packed with thousands upon thousands of stacks of alfalfa bales ready to be fed to dairy cows – but not cows in California’s Central Valley or Montana’s rangelands. > Instead, the alfalfa will be fed to cows in Saudi Arabia. > The storehouses belong to Fondomonte Farms, a subsidiary of the Saudi Arabia-based company Almarai – one of the largest food production companies in the world. The company sells milk, powdered milk and packaged items such as croissants, strudels and cupcakes in supermarkets and corner stores throughout the Middle East and North Africa, and in specialty grocers throughout the US. --- An article from UC Davis: https://alfalfa.ucdavis.edu/-files/pdf/shippingwaterputnam.pdf https://alfalfa.ucdavis.edu/-files/pdf/shippingwaterputnam.p... National Geographic: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/140123-colorado-river-water-alfalfa-hay-farming-export-asia https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/140123-co... > Glennon crunched some numbers and figured that in 2012, roughly 50 billion gallons of western water—enough to supply the annual household needs of half a million families—were exported to China. Not literally bottled up and shipped, but embedded in alfalfa crops grown with irrigation water. And that's just to China, which still trails Japan and the United Arab Emirates as a top destination for American alfalfa. Chasing the author, that leads us to https://www.hcn.org/issues/46.7/how-we-export-our-water-to-asia https://www.hcn.org/issues/46.7/how-we-export-our-water-to-a... NPR: In Time Of Drought, U.S. West's Alfalfa Exports Are Criticized https://www.npr.org/2014/08/12/339753108/in-time-of-drought-arizona-s-alpha-exports-criticized https://www.npr.org/2014/08/12/339753108/in-time-of-drought-... And WSJ Parched in the West but Shipping Water to China, Bale by Bale https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390444517304577653432417208116 https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390444517304577653...
balaji1 4y ago
The article has a title that is concise and makes a big claim, but it is not clear what the issue is. I could spend more time to read the article fully, but it seems intentional that the article is not so readable. And we know by now that most ecosystems are facing significant pressure, so this article feels like just another clickbait.
- pmoriarty 4y ago
  You're missing out. This is a very informative article, which should be required reading for anyone voting on water-related issues.
kolanos 4y ago
California produces 13% of the U.S.'s agriculture and produces 99% of the following: almonds, olives, peaches, artichokes, dates, pomegranates, raisins, sweet rice, pistachios, plums and walnuts. [0] Only reason the figure is 2% is because California's economy is so large, seems misleading? [0]: https://www.ocregister.com/2017/07/27/california-farms-produce-a-lot-of-food-but-what-and-how-much-might-surprise-you/ https://www.ocregister.com/2017/07/27/california-farms-produ...
veganzo 4y ago
[dead]
- throwawayboise 4y ago
  Or maybe stop raising animals where they need their food artificially supplied and then growing that food in a desert? There are places where cattle can free-range and graze, and grass can be cut during the summer to feed them in the winter. I live next door to such a farm. I doubt they use any water that doesn't fall from the sky.
  - MontyCarloHall 4y ago
    I agree that meat can be raised humanely and sustainably in the way you describe, but if all animal husbandry were like this, only the well-off could afford to eat meat. Moral issues aside, this would be completely politically unpalatable (as is the GP’s suggestion of somehow getting veganism to be adopted on a mass scale). We need to consider politically viable solutions (e.g. researching more efficient methods to grow tastier artificial meat), not theoretically correct but politically impossible solutions that are thus utterly unattainable.
    - pmoriarty 4y ago
      "We need to consider politically viable solutions (e.g. researching more efficient methods to grow tastier artificial meat)" It's already here. I tasted an "impossible burger" the other day that tasted very convincing. There are tons of other meat substitutes that are very tasty and convincing, and still very tasty even when not quite like meat. Ok, not absolutely everything that can be made from meat can yet be simulated absolutely convincingly, but do we really need 100% verisimilitude before switching away from meat? Many people just haven't even tried the many meat substitutes out there, so can't imagine they could get by without meat. But they can.
  - rascul 4y ago
    I work sometimes on a small farm. Food is grown on the farm, and water comes from ponds on the farm.

Avicebron 4y ago

A brief google search listed pasture, almonds, alfalfa, citrus and vineyards among some others. I'm fairly certain California has significant citrus, almonds, and vineyards. I'm not sure about the pasture although I can imagine there has to be some.

bombcar 4y ago
In 2015 California had 5.2 million head of cattle, 9% of the US. 70% of the alfalfa crop goes to those cows. Another source [1] indicates 38 million acres (half owned by the federal government as BLM land I guess) is range and pasture land. It is likely possible that water use could be reduced without completely turning off agriculture entirely, but it would require rebalancing the US agriculture market as a whole, and potentially reconsidering growing ethanol corn where water is plenty and instead grow more "edible" crops. [1] https://calcattlemen.org/ranching-in-california/ https://calcattlemen.org/ranching-in-california/
- throwawayboise 4y ago
  Using corn for ethanol fuel is bone-headed. That's among the first things we should quit doing. It's a convoluted subsidy for corn farmers, nothing more. As an energy supply it's net-negative.
  - bumby 4y ago
    It was the intent of the subsidies to give some level of energy independence in the wake of the OPEC oil crisis, right? Is your stance that is no longer needed because of fracking, etc.? Unfortunately, subsidies have a habit of sticking around past their usefulness. My favorite is alpaca subsidies enacted to ensure cold-weather gear was available during the Korean War. It stuck around until the 1990s I believe.
  - rjmunro 4y ago
    This is certainly true, but what could the corn farmers do instead that would use less water? In Europe they pay farmers to look after land and specifically not grow crops on it. Maybe something like that is needed in California.
bonestamp2 4y ago
There is a surprising amount (at least to me). Driving between LA and San Francisco there are a significant amount of pastures that can be seen from the freeway (coastal and central valley). That's just what you can see from the freeway and it's far more than I would have expected.
eschulz 4y ago
What are the most water-intensive forms of agriculture per calorie produced? Which are the most water-intensive forms of agricultural commodities per dollar of value produced?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

codenesium 4y ago

It probably makes a huge difference how the irrigation is applied. Flooding land with water or digging trenches and running water to crops is a lot less efficient than drip emitters on each plant. Obviously doesn't work for stuff like alfalfa but they shouldn't be growing that anyway...

jeffbee 4y ago
Flooding rice fields in Glenn County is essentially 100% efficient because all of the water returns to the Sacramento River or recharges aquifers. Watering orchards in west Fresno County returns all of the water to the atmosphere via transpiration. Even though superficially a rice field looks wasteful, they are on two opposite extremes.
- codenesium 4y ago
  How does returning it to the river solve the problem of their isn't enough groundwater? That water goes back into the ocean where it's stuck if it never rains.
  - jeffbee 4y ago
    Yeah but that's not really what happens to Sacramento River water. It's all diverted downstream for other uses. The Tracy pumps that raise the water from the delta into the aqueduct are the largest energy consumer in the state.
- SamBam 4y ago
  Doesn't a large percentage of the water flooding a rice field in Glenn County still evaporate, both before it enters the plants/aquifer, and later through transpiration? I don't know the percentages (but would love to learn) but it's certainly not zero.
  - jeffbee 4y ago
    Sure, but the denominator for flooded irrigation is huge, so the efficiency is high. That's why flooding is a superficial and not substantial problem. The plant transpires water at a certain rate and a certain density per ground area. That rate isn't influenced by whether the field is flooded or drip-irrigated. By the way flooding also provides wildlife habitat. Anyway I'm just tired of the meme about growing rice in a desert. California rice country isn't a desert, it exists in places that were annually flooded before flood control engineering, and should still get flooded for various reasons. It is not a waste of water.

asdff 4y ago

Some water intensive crops like alfalfa are simply exported to global markets and are not even used for the domestic food supply. We have a water scarce region and plenty are in the business of exporting this water. IMO using a gallon of water on a lawn you can lay on here in CA is better than watering alfalfa that will be shipped across the ocean to feed a pig for a day in China. We can have an export market but we should set that up where there is plenty of water to export, not where there is currently a drought due to these exports and wasteful (read: cheap and/or highly profitable for the land owner) agricultural practices employed thanks to permissive water rights laws.

kolanos 4y ago
> Based on USDA data for 2021, only 3.9% of all U.S. hay produced and 6.4% of all alfalfa hay entered the export market. [0] [0] https://hayandforage.com/article-3825-year-end-hay-exports-set-new-records.html https://hayandforage.com/article-3825-year-end-hay-exports-s...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Sakos 4y ago
  How much of Californian alfalfa is exported?
  - shagie 4y ago
    There's an article about it: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/25/california-water-drought-scarce-saudi-arabia https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/25/california-w... > Massive industrial storehouses line the southern end of town, packed with thousands upon thousands of stacks of alfalfa bales ready to be fed to dairy cows – but not cows in California’s Central Valley or Montana’s rangelands. > Instead, the alfalfa will be fed to cows in Saudi Arabia. > The storehouses belong to Fondomonte Farms, a subsidiary of the Saudi Arabia-based company Almarai – one of the largest food production companies in the world. The company sells milk, powdered milk and packaged items such as croissants, strudels and cupcakes in supermarkets and corner stores throughout the Middle East and North Africa, and in specialty grocers throughout the US. --- An article from UC Davis: https://alfalfa.ucdavis.edu/-files/pdf/shippingwaterputnam.pdf https://alfalfa.ucdavis.edu/-files/pdf/shippingwaterputnam.p... National Geographic: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/140123-colorado-river-water-alfalfa-hay-farming-export-asia https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/140123-co... > Glennon crunched some numbers and figured that in 2012, roughly 50 billion gallons of western water—enough to supply the annual household needs of half a million families—were exported to China. Not literally bottled up and shipped, but embedded in alfalfa crops grown with irrigation water. And that's just to China, which still trails Japan and the United Arab Emirates as a top destination for American alfalfa. Chasing the author, that leads us to https://www.hcn.org/issues/46.7/how-we-export-our-water-to-asia https://www.hcn.org/issues/46.7/how-we-export-our-water-to-a... NPR: In Time Of Drought, U.S. West's Alfalfa Exports Are Criticized https://www.npr.org/2014/08/12/339753108/in-time-of-drought-arizona-s-alpha-exports-criticized https://www.npr.org/2014/08/12/339753108/in-time-of-drought-... And WSJ Parched in the West but Shipping Water to China, Bale by Bale https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390444517304577653432417208116 https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390444517304577653...

balaji1 4y ago

The article has a title that is concise and makes a big claim, but it is not clear what the issue is. I could spend more time to read the article fully, but it seems intentional that the article is not so readable. And we know by now that most ecosystems are facing significant pressure, so this article feels like just another clickbait.

pmoriarty 4y ago
You're missing out. This is a very informative article, which should be required reading for anyone voting on water-related issues.

kolanos 4y ago

California produces 13% of the U.S.'s agriculture and produces 99% of the following: almonds, olives, peaches, artichokes, dates, pomegranates, raisins, sweet rice, pistachios, plums and walnuts. [0] Only reason the figure is 2% is because California's economy is so large, seems misleading? [0]: https://www.ocregister.com/2017/07/27/california-farms-produce-a-lot-of-food-but-what-and-how-much-might-surprise-you/ https://www.ocregister.com/2017/07/27/california-farms-produ...

veganzo 4y ago

[dead]

throwawayboise 4y ago
Or maybe stop raising animals where they need their food artificially supplied and then growing that food in a desert? There are places where cattle can free-range and graze, and grass can be cut during the summer to feed them in the winter. I live next door to such a farm. I doubt they use any water that doesn't fall from the sky.
- MontyCarloHall 4y ago
  I agree that meat can be raised humanely and sustainably in the way you describe, but if all animal husbandry were like this, only the well-off could afford to eat meat. Moral issues aside, this would be completely politically unpalatable (as is the GP’s suggestion of somehow getting veganism to be adopted on a mass scale). We need to consider politically viable solutions (e.g. researching more efficient methods to grow tastier artificial meat), not theoretically correct but politically impossible solutions that are thus utterly unattainable.
  - pmoriarty 4y ago
    "We need to consider politically viable solutions (e.g. researching more efficient methods to grow tastier artificial meat)" It's already here. I tasted an "impossible burger" the other day that tasted very convincing. There are tons of other meat substitutes that are very tasty and convincing, and still very tasty even when not quite like meat. Ok, not absolutely everything that can be made from meat can yet be simulated absolutely convincingly, but do we really need 100% verisimilitude before switching away from meat? Many people just haven't even tried the many meat substitutes out there, so can't imagine they could get by without meat. But they can.
- rascul 4y ago
  I work sometimes on a small farm. Food is grown on the farm, and water comes from ponds on the farm.