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Please see SEASPIRACY if you have a chance. Eating fish is not sustainable. Overfishing and by-catch is a real problem (already more than 90% of sharks are ext

by myshpa 4y ago

Please see SEASPIRACY if you have a chance. Eating fish is not sustainable. Overfishing and by-catch is a real problem (already more than 90% of sharks are exterminated), and in near future the seas could be totally devoid of life (except for jellyfish). [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seaspiracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seaspiracy ] > The argument for full veganism has to be that animals are people I don't agree. (1) We shouldn’t be cruel to animals, i.e. we shouldn’t harm animals unnecessarily. (2) The consumption of animal products harms animals and Earth. (3) The consumption of animal products is unnecessary. (4) Therefore, we shouldn’t consume animal products.

c22 4y ago
Your last three points can be applied to any products.
- myshpa 4y ago
  Yes - but you're supposed to start at point 1 :) Meat eating is a complex matter - no time & space to cover it extensively here. As I'm convinced, without forests the water cycle gets disrupted and the climate won't be able to support life as we know it [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKL40aBg-7E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKL40aBg-7E - The Biotic Pump: How Forests Create Rain]. With cows, there is not enough land to even have forests. And if we can agree that we don't need cows and dairy (plants can replace it easily), why not also remove all the suffering that's connected to the meat industry? Sorry for the detour.
  - 7steps2much 4y ago
    Can you make any recommendations for replacement of dairy products? Personally i found that dairy stuff (cheese especially) is the one thing that seems to not have any acceptable plant based replacement (IMHO) Most other vegan alternatives aren't good, but they are toleratable. The vegan cheeses i tried so far however were absolutely atrocious.
    - spacemanmatt 4y ago
      I have eat vegan for years at a time. You're 100% right about cheese. There is nothing like dairy. But when I'm well nourished on a vegan diet I get over the desire pretty fast. I should probably go back to plants. It was so good for me.
    - myshpa 4y ago
      I don't like vegan cheeses from supermarket much. And there are no artisanal vegan cheese producers in my area - maybe you'll be more lucky. So I've been making my own. Better quality, better price, better taste compared to the supermarket stuff. Cheese [https://thehiddenveggies.com/how-to-make-vegan-cheese-provolone/ https://thehiddenveggies.com/how-to-make-vegan-cheese-provol... - from coconut milk], yoghurt [https://www.spoonfulofkindness.com/how-to-make-vegan-yogurt/ https://www.spoonfulofkindness.com/how-to-make-vegan-yogurt/ - soya, cashew, almonds, coconut, oats, chickpea], and butter [https://veganheaven.org/recipe/vegan-butter/ https://veganheaven.org/recipe/vegan-butter/, https://lovingitvegan.com/homemade-vegan-butter/ https://lovingitvegan.com/homemade-vegan-butter/ - with olive oil, not canola].
binibus 4y ago
How do you fit pesticides in that framework of thought? - They are unnecessary. Humanity lived thousands of years without them. - They harm billions of animals. - But not using them would condemn us to a subsistence economy. Edit: though for thought lmao
- myshpa 4y ago
  > They are unnecessary. Humanity lived thousands of years without them. Totally agree. Cca 75% of pesticides/herbicides are used for meat & dairy production (we need 75% of agriculture land for it). > They harm billions of animals. And they harm people, too. Pesticide bioaccumulation in milk has been linked to Parkinson's disease, for example. > But not using them would condemn us to a subsistence economy. I'm not sure that's true. There is a lot of regenerative agriculture styles not needing pesticides/herbicides. Current agriculture practices are oriented on mass scale and low prices - when you modify that need, you can have much greater yields, but have to change your way of thinking about it. One example (sorry, have to return to work process). We've all seen the large fields of wheat, so large, you can see the earth curvature. And not a single tree in sight. If you remove all the nature, tile it, seed large swaths of land with a monoculture, you remove a place for wildlife to live in. Without predators (foxes, owls) your crop gets all eaten by mice, which overpopulate easily. So you have to use pesticides (which we then eat in our food & drink in our water). If you have a monoculture, then bugs easily propagate and there is nothing to stop them and you'll have a large loses. But if you stop planting monoculture (maybe alternating rows of crops with rows of trees, and some bushes & flowers between them), bugs will have harder time to infect whole harvest and there is enough natural predators from the bug world to take care of them. Biodiversity is the key. [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8969332/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8969332/ - The Biggest Little Farm, sustainable farm on 200 acres outside of Los Angeles talks in some lengths about this] [https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/may/07/secret-world-beneath-our-feet-mind-blowing-key-to-planets-future https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/may/07/secret-w...] [https://www.agricology.co.uk/field/farmer-profiles/iain-tolhurst-tolly https://www.agricology.co.uk/field/farmer-profiles/iain-tolh... - a single person from previous article]
  - 4y ago
vintermann 4y ago
I even addressed that argument in advance, you made it anyway... Again: No matter how bad harvesting of sea resources is, it can't be enough to abandon the oceans entirely, any more than the vast land-use impact of agriculture can be used as argument for abandoning agriculture.
- myshpa 4y ago
  > No matter how bad harvesting of sea resources is, it can't be enough to abandon the oceans entirely I probably don't understand your point (sorry english is not my first or second language). At this moment we're seriously overfishing our oceans and killing it's population, that's what i have beef with (pun intended). So your argument is - let's continue fishing? > any more than the vast land-use impact of agriculture can be used as argument for abandoning agriculture I'm arguing for changing agriculture (or better land management practices), not its abandonment.
  - vintermann 4y ago
    I know you are! But if better land management practices is good enough on land, why can't better fisheries management be good enough at sea?
    - myshpa 4y ago
      There are many issues, wikipedia seems ok, no time to summarize it, sorry. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_farming#Issues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_farming#Issues]
      - vintermann 4y ago
        I didn't ask about what was wrong with fish farming. I said: you don't want to cut out ALL agriculture, even though a big part of present agriculture may be unsustainable. So why do you want to cut out ALL fishing and fish farming? I know the answer is that you're a vegan, but that doesn't cut it if you want to convince those who care about sustainability.
lm28469 4y ago
> SEASPIRACY Every time I see that title I ask myself why they didn't go for "conspirasea"
- spacemanmatt 4y ago
  ...The Seamen of Qanon? That has a bit of a ring to it.

by myshpa 4y ago

c22 4y ago

Your last three points can be applied to any products.

myshpa 4y ago
Yes - but you're supposed to start at point 1 :) Meat eating is a complex matter - no time & space to cover it extensively here. As I'm convinced, without forests the water cycle gets disrupted and the climate won't be able to support life as we know it [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKL40aBg-7E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKL40aBg-7E - The Biotic Pump: How Forests Create Rain]. With cows, there is not enough land to even have forests. And if we can agree that we don't need cows and dairy (plants can replace it easily), why not also remove all the suffering that's connected to the meat industry? Sorry for the detour.
- 7steps2much 4y ago
  Can you make any recommendations for replacement of dairy products? Personally i found that dairy stuff (cheese especially) is the one thing that seems to not have any acceptable plant based replacement (IMHO) Most other vegan alternatives aren't good, but they are toleratable. The vegan cheeses i tried so far however were absolutely atrocious.
  - spacemanmatt 4y ago
    I have eat vegan for years at a time. You're 100% right about cheese. There is nothing like dairy. But when I'm well nourished on a vegan diet I get over the desire pretty fast. I should probably go back to plants. It was so good for me.
  - myshpa 4y ago
    I don't like vegan cheeses from supermarket much. And there are no artisanal vegan cheese producers in my area - maybe you'll be more lucky. So I've been making my own. Better quality, better price, better taste compared to the supermarket stuff. Cheese [https://thehiddenveggies.com/how-to-make-vegan-cheese-provolone/ https://thehiddenveggies.com/how-to-make-vegan-cheese-provol... - from coconut milk], yoghurt [https://www.spoonfulofkindness.com/how-to-make-vegan-yogurt/ https://www.spoonfulofkindness.com/how-to-make-vegan-yogurt/ - soya, cashew, almonds, coconut, oats, chickpea], and butter [https://veganheaven.org/recipe/vegan-butter/ https://veganheaven.org/recipe/vegan-butter/, https://lovingitvegan.com/homemade-vegan-butter/ https://lovingitvegan.com/homemade-vegan-butter/ - with olive oil, not canola].

binibus 4y ago

How do you fit pesticides in that framework of thought? - They are unnecessary. Humanity lived thousands of years without them. - They harm billions of animals. - But not using them would condemn us to a subsistence economy. Edit: though for thought lmao

myshpa 4y ago
> They are unnecessary. Humanity lived thousands of years without them. Totally agree. Cca 75% of pesticides/herbicides are used for meat & dairy production (we need 75% of agriculture land for it). > They harm billions of animals. And they harm people, too. Pesticide bioaccumulation in milk has been linked to Parkinson's disease, for example. > But not using them would condemn us to a subsistence economy. I'm not sure that's true. There is a lot of regenerative agriculture styles not needing pesticides/herbicides. Current agriculture practices are oriented on mass scale and low prices - when you modify that need, you can have much greater yields, but have to change your way of thinking about it. One example (sorry, have to return to work process). We've all seen the large fields of wheat, so large, you can see the earth curvature. And not a single tree in sight. If you remove all the nature, tile it, seed large swaths of land with a monoculture, you remove a place for wildlife to live in. Without predators (foxes, owls) your crop gets all eaten by mice, which overpopulate easily. So you have to use pesticides (which we then eat in our food & drink in our water). If you have a monoculture, then bugs easily propagate and there is nothing to stop them and you'll have a large loses. But if you stop planting monoculture (maybe alternating rows of crops with rows of trees, and some bushes & flowers between them), bugs will have harder time to infect whole harvest and there is enough natural predators from the bug world to take care of them. Biodiversity is the key. [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8969332/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8969332/ - The Biggest Little Farm, sustainable farm on 200 acres outside of Los Angeles talks in some lengths about this] [https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/may/07/secret-world-beneath-our-feet-mind-blowing-key-to-planets-future https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/may/07/secret-w...] [https://www.agricology.co.uk/field/farmer-profiles/iain-tolhurst-tolly https://www.agricology.co.uk/field/farmer-profiles/iain-tolh... - a single person from previous article]
- 4y ago

vintermann 4y ago

I even addressed that argument in advance, you made it anyway... Again: No matter how bad harvesting of sea resources is, it can't be enough to abandon the oceans entirely, any more than the vast land-use impact of agriculture can be used as argument for abandoning agriculture.

myshpa 4y ago
> No matter how bad harvesting of sea resources is, it can't be enough to abandon the oceans entirely I probably don't understand your point (sorry english is not my first or second language). At this moment we're seriously overfishing our oceans and killing it's population, that's what i have beef with (pun intended). So your argument is - let's continue fishing? > any more than the vast land-use impact of agriculture can be used as argument for abandoning agriculture I'm arguing for changing agriculture (or better land management practices), not its abandonment.
- vintermann 4y ago
  I know you are! But if better land management practices is good enough on land, why can't better fisheries management be good enough at sea?
  - myshpa 4y ago
    There are many issues, wikipedia seems ok, no time to summarize it, sorry. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_farming#Issues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_farming#Issues]
    - vintermann 4y ago
      I didn't ask about what was wrong with fish farming. I said: you don't want to cut out ALL agriculture, even though a big part of present agriculture may be unsustainable. So why do you want to cut out ALL fishing and fish farming? I know the answer is that you're a vegan, but that doesn't cut it if you want to convince those who care about sustainability.

lm28469 4y ago

> SEASPIRACY Every time I see that title I ask myself why they didn't go for "conspirasea"

spacemanmatt 4y ago
...The Seamen of Qanon? That has a bit of a ring to it.