4 ms·

How did you feel? According to Wikipedia [1] the dish chicken tikka masala is thought to have been invented by Bangladeshi chefs working in the UK in the 1960s

by unwind 4y ago

How did you feel? According to Wikipedia [1] the dish chicken tikka masala is thought to have been invented by Bangladeshi chefs working in the UK in the 1960s. Doesn't that make it at least somewhat British? It was invented by chefs in a different country than their own, likely then adjusted by those chefs to what they perceived that the local market wanted. In contrast, I mean, to being cooked "The Way It Has Always Been Done" in their country's tradition? The Wiki page even mentions more classical/historical dishes from the norhern Indian area, that are thought to have inspired tikka masala. That, to me, makes it even more clear that the dish is new. If I, as a Swedish person, move to the US and compose an awesome recipe for pizzaballs [2] where I combine Swedish meatballs with the American love for all things pizza [3] and it becomes a huge hit which is exported to the rest of the world, would that make the dish Swedish? [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tikka_masala https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tikka_masala [2]: I'm just making up an example here on the spot. [3]: A love which is, of course, shared by large parts of the rest of the world in our own fashion, not trying to point the finger at (a nuclear superpower of 330 M people) y'all in any way.

cinntaile 4y ago
I hope he answers how he felt. Additionally it would be interesting to know his nationality.
- alex_smart 4y ago
  I felt offended by chicken tikka masala being called British. How many countries in the world do you think I could be from? Yes, I am obviously Mexican.
  - cinntaile 4y ago
    Well, it was created by Bangladeshi people according to Wikipedia so I'll have to go with Bangladesh. If I hade not known this then my first guess would have been India, but I prefer not to guess so I ask instead.
    - alex_smart 4y ago
      Oh, it says so in the Wikipedia. It certainly must be true! Although it this case, it is not even true that the Wikipedia actually says that. Did you even read the article or are you just here to troll? Did I accidentally wander into reddit by mistake? [The Wikipedia recounts several different versions of the urban legend. Three different sources with three different versions one where the chef was Bangladeshi, one where the chef was Indian, and another where the chef was Pakistani.]
      - cinntaile 4y ago
        You are free to go through my comment history and draw your own conclusions. So now it can be from Bangladesh, India or Pakistan. It doesn't really help your case that it's an Indian dish, perhaps we should call it a Southeast Asian dish instead?
        alex_smart 4y ago
        >You are free to go through my comment history and draw your own conclusions. I can also just draw my own conclusions from the interaction I am having with you right now. >So now it can be from Bangladesh, India or Pakistan. No, the urban legends noted in the Wikipedia say that it could be from those places. Butter Chicken was actually invented in Delhi in a restaurant called Moti Mahal in the early 1950s by Punjabi migrants. CTM is too similar a dish to Butter Chicken to be called a new dish, let alone an "invention".
        cinntaile 4y ago
        > I can also just draw my own conclusions from the interaction I am having with you right now. It does explain your first emotion of being offended, you seem very easily offended. > Butter Chicken was actually invented in Delhi in a restaurant called Moti Mahal in the early 1950s by Punjabi migrants. CTM is too similar a dish to Butter Chicken to be called a new dish, let alone an "invention". Now Chicken Tikka Masala is the same dish as Butter Chicken. Alright then.
alex_smart 4y ago
>According to Wikipedia [1] the dish chicken tikka masala is thought to have been invented by Bangladeshi chefs working in the UK in the 1960s. Doesn't that make it at least somewhat British? First of all that is not a well-established origin story, but more like an urban legend. There are multiple conflicting versions of this same urban legend where multiple different restaurants claim to have invented the dish in the same way. And the restaurant chain (Moti Mahal) from one of these versions had been serving a virtually identical dish in their Delhi restaurant since the 1950s, ten years before any of these supposed origin stories. I will let you come to your own conclusions about what scope for authenticity that leaves for these stories. >If I, as a Swedish person, move to the US and compose an awesome recipe for pizzaballs [2] where I combine Swedish meatballs with the American love for all things pizza [3] and it becomes a huge hit which is exported to the rest of the world, would that make the dish Swedish? In your case at least you will be doing some "fusion" or "innovation" right? What exactly is the "fusion" or "innovation" in chicken tikka masala? Can anyone of sound mind actually claim that chicken tikka masala and butter chicken are two completely different dishes? While we are making up examples on the spot, here is a more accurate one. If I start making pizzas in India and because mozzarella is hard to find here, just use processed cheese instead and may be put more chilis on top to suit Indian tastes, does the dish stop being pizza? There has to be some reasonable limitation on how little you modify something before you get to call it a new "invention".
- unwind 4y ago
  All good points, thanks. I guess food history is murky and complicated, even for semi-modern things like this. :) I don't know remotely enough about Indian food to measure the degree of innovation in tikka masala, I'm afraid.
  - alex_smart 4y ago
    Recipe for butter chicken: roasted pieces of tandoori chicken in a tomatoey butter based sauce. Recipe for chicken tikka masala: roasted pieces of tandoori chicken in a tomatoey cream based sauce. As is often the case with cultural appropriation, the real innovation by the appropriator was the marketing. In my view, this is what probably happened: multiple restaurants found the fake origin story a profitable and interesting marketing tool and judging by how popular indian food is in the UK today, it obviously worked.
mongol 4y ago
I have the perfect example for discussion here. "Swedish meatballs, IKEA style", by an Indian Youtube cook, made out of chicken and with ginger, garlic and garam masala. By all means, they are meatballs, but Swedish, they are not. https://youtu.be/Jlu9LP2k8pQ https://youtu.be/Jlu9LP2k8pQ

by unwind 4y ago

cinntaile 4y ago

I hope he answers how he felt. Additionally it would be interesting to know his nationality.

alex_smart 4y ago
I felt offended by chicken tikka masala being called British. How many countries in the world do you think I could be from? Yes, I am obviously Mexican.
- cinntaile 4y ago
  Well, it was created by Bangladeshi people according to Wikipedia so I'll have to go with Bangladesh. If I hade not known this then my first guess would have been India, but I prefer not to guess so I ask instead.
  - alex_smart 4y ago
    Oh, it says so in the Wikipedia. It certainly must be true! Although it this case, it is not even true that the Wikipedia actually says that. Did you even read the article or are you just here to troll? Did I accidentally wander into reddit by mistake? [The Wikipedia recounts several different versions of the urban legend. Three different sources with three different versions one where the chef was Bangladeshi, one where the chef was Indian, and another where the chef was Pakistani.]
    - cinntaile 4y ago
      You are free to go through my comment history and draw your own conclusions. So now it can be from Bangladesh, India or Pakistan. It doesn't really help your case that it's an Indian dish, perhaps we should call it a Southeast Asian dish instead?
      - alex_smart 4y ago
        >You are free to go through my comment history and draw your own conclusions. I can also just draw my own conclusions from the interaction I am having with you right now. >So now it can be from Bangladesh, India or Pakistan. No, the urban legends noted in the Wikipedia say that it could be from those places. Butter Chicken was actually invented in Delhi in a restaurant called Moti Mahal in the early 1950s by Punjabi migrants. CTM is too similar a dish to Butter Chicken to be called a new dish, let alone an "invention".
        cinntaile 4y ago
        > I can also just draw my own conclusions from the interaction I am having with you right now. It does explain your first emotion of being offended, you seem very easily offended. > Butter Chicken was actually invented in Delhi in a restaurant called Moti Mahal in the early 1950s by Punjabi migrants. CTM is too similar a dish to Butter Chicken to be called a new dish, let alone an "invention". Now Chicken Tikka Masala is the same dish as Butter Chicken. Alright then.

alex_smart 4y ago

>According to Wikipedia [1] the dish chicken tikka masala is thought to have been invented by Bangladeshi chefs working in the UK in the 1960s. Doesn't that make it at least somewhat British? First of all that is not a well-established origin story, but more like an urban legend. There are multiple conflicting versions of this same urban legend where multiple different restaurants claim to have invented the dish in the same way. And the restaurant chain (Moti Mahal) from one of these versions had been serving a virtually identical dish in their Delhi restaurant since the 1950s, ten years before any of these supposed origin stories. I will let you come to your own conclusions about what scope for authenticity that leaves for these stories. >If I, as a Swedish person, move to the US and compose an awesome recipe for pizzaballs [2] where I combine Swedish meatballs with the American love for all things pizza [3] and it becomes a huge hit which is exported to the rest of the world, would that make the dish Swedish? In your case at least you will be doing some "fusion" or "innovation" right? What exactly is the "fusion" or "innovation" in chicken tikka masala? Can anyone of sound mind actually claim that chicken tikka masala and butter chicken are two completely different dishes? While we are making up examples on the spot, here is a more accurate one. If I start making pizzas in India and because mozzarella is hard to find here, just use processed cheese instead and may be put more chilis on top to suit Indian tastes, does the dish stop being pizza? There has to be some reasonable limitation on how little you modify something before you get to call it a new "invention".

unwind 4y ago
All good points, thanks. I guess food history is murky and complicated, even for semi-modern things like this. :) I don't know remotely enough about Indian food to measure the degree of innovation in tikka masala, I'm afraid.
- alex_smart 4y ago
  Recipe for butter chicken: roasted pieces of tandoori chicken in a tomatoey butter based sauce. Recipe for chicken tikka masala: roasted pieces of tandoori chicken in a tomatoey cream based sauce. As is often the case with cultural appropriation, the real innovation by the appropriator was the marketing. In my view, this is what probably happened: multiple restaurants found the fake origin story a profitable and interesting marketing tool and judging by how popular indian food is in the UK today, it obviously worked.

mongol 4y ago

I have the perfect example for discussion here. "Swedish meatballs, IKEA style", by an Indian Youtube cook, made out of chicken and with ginger, garlic and garam masala. By all means, they are meatballs, but Swedish, they are not. https://youtu.be/Jlu9LP2k8pQ https://youtu.be/Jlu9LP2k8pQ