7 ms·

This comment is hilarious to me because this is the first example i have seen of white people getting their culture appropriated. I suppose an Italian reading

This comment is hilarious to me because this is the first example i have seen of white people getting their culture appropriated. I suppose an Italian reading this might feel the same way I felt when I learnt that the British claim chicken tikka masala as their own.

eru 4y ago
> This comment is hilarious to me because this is the first example i have seen of white people getting their culture appropriated. Happens all the time. Ever heard of Hamburgers?
- fartcannon 4y ago
  Also which white people? Do the Greeks or Romans count? Because if they do... The movie industry in the united states is a culture exporter. Probably uncountable examples from just that alone. Surely some of that is both OP's definition of 'White' and appropriated outside its original countries.
mlindner 4y ago
I mean it's really not cultural appropriation. Pizza is one of the great American inventions. It was brought over by Italian immigrants and evolved into a main stream staple served the world over, and that's based on the American Pizza, not the Italian one. Hot dogs are similar in that way.
- dcx 4y ago
  Sorry, but this is absolutely false. The US was not the only country to receive immigrants during the two Italian diasporas [1], and so you are not the only country to develop a taste for Italian cuisine. Australian pizza descends directly from the Italian style. We do have the American style as well, but it's a minority preference. Our pizza usually looks like this [2]. It's also notable that Starbucks failed to make a dent here [3], because our coffee culture is truer to its Italian roots than yours. Given the circumstances in which this happened here, it stretches credulity to imagine that the preferences for pizza across Western Europe, South America, and Africa have been filtered through American preferences when Italians have been there making pizza for just as long. Please check your exceptionalism, thanks. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_diaspora#Statistics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_diaspora#Statistics [2] https://www.idealista.it/en/news/lifestyle-italy/2019/06/10/2491-most-popular-authentic-italian-pizzas https://www.idealista.it/en/news/lifestyle-italy/2019/06/10/... [2] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/20/starbucks-australia-coffee-failure.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/20/starbucks-australia-coffee-f...
- tigershark 4y ago
  No, you have really no idea about what you are speaking about. Doing a proper pizza is quite difficult, all the botched attempts around the world look very similar and are just an awful subpar imitation that you call pizza.
- xorcist 4y ago
  In which other countries would people think of "pizza" as the American style? Maybe two or three in Southeast Asia. Maybe Canada, but they're weird and mostly their own thing. Don't know anything about Africa, but I would guess they're more like the rest of the world. Almost all countries have their own variations of pizza. It's a lovely dish.
- silviot 4y ago
  I'm really, honestly curious what reasons you have to believe this. I can't imagine any. It is so much different from my view and the view of the people I usually talk to, that I can't fathom where it comes from. Is it something you read, something you saw on youtube, your experience travelling to some countries? How do you base your assertions? I'm honestly lost and I'd like to understand. How can you assert that "Pizza served all over the world is based on the American Pizza, not the Italian one"?
unwind 4y ago
How did you feel? According to Wikipedia [1] the dish chicken tikka masala is thought to have been invented by Bangladeshi chefs working in the UK in the 1960s. Doesn't that make it at least somewhat British? It was invented by chefs in a different country than their own, likely then adjusted by those chefs to what they perceived that the local market wanted. In contrast, I mean, to being cooked "The Way It Has Always Been Done" in their country's tradition? The Wiki page even mentions more classical/historical dishes from the norhern Indian area, that are thought to have inspired tikka masala. That, to me, makes it even more clear that the dish is new. If I, as a Swedish person, move to the US and compose an awesome recipe for pizzaballs [2] where I combine Swedish meatballs with the American love for all things pizza [3] and it becomes a huge hit which is exported to the rest of the world, would that make the dish Swedish? [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tikka_masala https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tikka_masala [2]: I'm just making up an example here on the spot. [3]: A love which is, of course, shared by large parts of the rest of the world in our own fashion, not trying to point the finger at (a nuclear superpower of 330 M people) y'all in any way.
- cinntaile 4y ago
  I hope he answers how he felt. Additionally it would be interesting to know his nationality.
  - alex_smart 4y ago
    I felt offended by chicken tikka masala being called British. How many countries in the world do you think I could be from? Yes, I am obviously Mexican.
    - cinntaile 4y ago
      Well, it was created by Bangladeshi people according to Wikipedia so I'll have to go with Bangladesh. If I hade not known this then my first guess would have been India, but I prefer not to guess so I ask instead.
      - 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
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croon 4y ago
Well, vindaloo is from Portugal. Tomatoes and peppers came from South America, so Italians (and Indians) have been using them for less time. I think it's just best to accept the fact that almost all food was fusion at some point in time, and there's no reason to think it won't become part of a new fusion going forward.
- alex_smart 4y ago
  >I think it's just best to accept the fact that almost all food was fusion at some point in time, and there's no reason to think it won't become part of a new fusion going forward. What was the fusion in chicken tikka masala? And come to think of it, what other new dish has the British Indian restaurant industry come up with in the 50-60 years after the chicken tikka masala. Such amazing creativity right at the very start (only a coincidence that it is 99.9% same thing as another dish being sold in Delhi for at least 10 years before) and nothing since? What an incredibly sad story.
  - croon 4y ago
    > What was the fusion in chicken tikka masala? It has tomatoes in it for one. > And come to think of it, what other new dish has the British Indian restaurant industry come up with in the 50-60 years after the chicken tikka masala. Chutney (the type consumed in UK), for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Indian_cuisine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Indian_cuisine But 50-60 years is not a long time. Things do move a lot quicker now that food import routes have made it possible to get most exotic components to most elsewhere places without growing them on-site. But take a step back on what you look at as quintessentially "local" food anywhere and there's always movement. Nations form, crumble and split, peoples migrate, etc.
    - alex_smart 4y ago
      >It has tomatoes in it for one. As does Butter Chicken which was invented in a restaurant in Delhi at least 10 years before CTM's appearance in Britain. Butter Chicken and CTM are 99.9% the same dish. So again, I ask, where exactly is the "fusion" in CTM? The Portuguese arrived in India in 1498 and brought tomatoes with them. It was used in Indian cooking for centuries before the invention of the CTM. Our recipes did not have to travel to Britain for them to have tomatoes. SMH. You guys have absolutely no idea how infuriating this is. Trying to teach me about my culture as if you know anything about it.
deleted 4y ago
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eru 4y ago

> This comment is hilarious to me because this is the first example i have seen of white people getting their culture appropriated. Happens all the time. Ever heard of Hamburgers?

fartcannon 4y ago
Also which white people? Do the Greeks or Romans count? Because if they do... The movie industry in the united states is a culture exporter. Probably uncountable examples from just that alone. Surely some of that is both OP's definition of 'White' and appropriated outside its original countries.

mlindner 4y ago

I mean it's really not cultural appropriation. Pizza is one of the great American inventions. It was brought over by Italian immigrants and evolved into a main stream staple served the world over, and that's based on the American Pizza, not the Italian one. Hot dogs are similar in that way.

dcx 4y ago
Sorry, but this is absolutely false. The US was not the only country to receive immigrants during the two Italian diasporas [1], and so you are not the only country to develop a taste for Italian cuisine. Australian pizza descends directly from the Italian style. We do have the American style as well, but it's a minority preference. Our pizza usually looks like this [2]. It's also notable that Starbucks failed to make a dent here [3], because our coffee culture is truer to its Italian roots than yours. Given the circumstances in which this happened here, it stretches credulity to imagine that the preferences for pizza across Western Europe, South America, and Africa have been filtered through American preferences when Italians have been there making pizza for just as long. Please check your exceptionalism, thanks. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_diaspora#Statistics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_diaspora#Statistics [2] https://www.idealista.it/en/news/lifestyle-italy/2019/06/10/2491-most-popular-authentic-italian-pizzas https://www.idealista.it/en/news/lifestyle-italy/2019/06/10/... [2] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/20/starbucks-australia-coffee-failure.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/20/starbucks-australia-coffee-f...
tigershark 4y ago
No, you have really no idea about what you are speaking about. Doing a proper pizza is quite difficult, all the botched attempts around the world look very similar and are just an awful subpar imitation that you call pizza.
xorcist 4y ago
In which other countries would people think of "pizza" as the American style? Maybe two or three in Southeast Asia. Maybe Canada, but they're weird and mostly their own thing. Don't know anything about Africa, but I would guess they're more like the rest of the world. Almost all countries have their own variations of pizza. It's a lovely dish.
silviot 4y ago
I'm really, honestly curious what reasons you have to believe this. I can't imagine any. It is so much different from my view and the view of the people I usually talk to, that I can't fathom where it comes from. Is it something you read, something you saw on youtube, your experience travelling to some countries? How do you base your assertions? I'm honestly lost and I'd like to understand. How can you assert that "Pizza served all over the world is based on the American Pizza, not the Italian one"?

unwind 4y ago

How did you feel? According to Wikipedia [1] the dish chicken tikka masala is thought to have been invented by Bangladeshi chefs working in the UK in the 1960s. Doesn't that make it at least somewhat British? It was invented by chefs in a different country than their own, likely then adjusted by those chefs to what they perceived that the local market wanted. In contrast, I mean, to being cooked "The Way It Has Always Been Done" in their country's tradition? The Wiki page even mentions more classical/historical dishes from the norhern Indian area, that are thought to have inspired tikka masala. That, to me, makes it even more clear that the dish is new. If I, as a Swedish person, move to the US and compose an awesome recipe for pizzaballs [2] where I combine Swedish meatballs with the American love for all things pizza [3] and it becomes a huge hit which is exported to the rest of the world, would that make the dish Swedish? [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tikka_masala https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tikka_masala [2]: I'm just making up an example here on the spot. [3]: A love which is, of course, shared by large parts of the rest of the world in our own fashion, not trying to point the finger at (a nuclear superpower of 330 M people) y'all in any way.

cinntaile 4y ago
I hope he answers how he felt. Additionally it would be interesting to know his nationality.
- alex_smart 4y ago
  I felt offended by chicken tikka masala being called British. How many countries in the world do you think I could be from? Yes, I am obviously Mexican.
  - cinntaile 4y ago
    Well, it was created by Bangladeshi people according to Wikipedia so I'll have to go with Bangladesh. If I hade not known this then my first guess would have been India, but I prefer not to guess so I ask instead.
    - 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

croon 4y ago

Well, vindaloo is from Portugal. Tomatoes and peppers came from South America, so Italians (and Indians) have been using them for less time. I think it's just best to accept the fact that almost all food was fusion at some point in time, and there's no reason to think it won't become part of a new fusion going forward.

alex_smart 4y ago
>I think it's just best to accept the fact that almost all food was fusion at some point in time, and there's no reason to think it won't become part of a new fusion going forward. What was the fusion in chicken tikka masala? And come to think of it, what other new dish has the British Indian restaurant industry come up with in the 50-60 years after the chicken tikka masala. Such amazing creativity right at the very start (only a coincidence that it is 99.9% same thing as another dish being sold in Delhi for at least 10 years before) and nothing since? What an incredibly sad story.
- croon 4y ago
  > What was the fusion in chicken tikka masala? It has tomatoes in it for one. > And come to think of it, what other new dish has the British Indian restaurant industry come up with in the 50-60 years after the chicken tikka masala. Chutney (the type consumed in UK), for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Indian_cuisine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Indian_cuisine But 50-60 years is not a long time. Things do move a lot quicker now that food import routes have made it possible to get most exotic components to most elsewhere places without growing them on-site. But take a step back on what you look at as quintessentially "local" food anywhere and there's always movement. Nations form, crumble and split, peoples migrate, etc.
  - alex_smart 4y ago
    >It has tomatoes in it for one. As does Butter Chicken which was invented in a restaurant in Delhi at least 10 years before CTM's appearance in Britain. Butter Chicken and CTM are 99.9% the same dish. So again, I ask, where exactly is the "fusion" in CTM? The Portuguese arrived in India in 1498 and brought tomatoes with them. It was used in Indian cooking for centuries before the invention of the CTM. Our recipes did not have to travel to Britain for them to have tomatoes. SMH. You guys have absolutely no idea how infuriating this is. Trying to teach me about my culture as if you know anything about it.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]