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I think people from coastal California, such as the couple featured in the article, take for granted the spontaneous joy when random friends and family pop into

I think people from coastal California, such as the couple featured in the article, take for granted the spontaneous joy when random friends and family pop into the city, because of a work trip for example, and try to meet up. And then proceed to have a deep meaningful conversation in your native language where you get each other's references, figures of speech, jokes, and are generally on the same wavelength. It seems shortsighted to move to tiny coastal city in Europe that you can probably see in a weekend visit, where you rarely get to express yourself in your own language, spending years constantly frustrating and annoying people when speaking their language, having no cultural attachment, possibly destroying your career, and the sinking feeling that you may never see most of your friends and family again let alone that exciting spontaneous visit. I thought it was because you could get a place on the beach at a considerably lower price than California but the city mentioned, Cascais, seems similarly priced. The lower crime rate is a compelling reason to move but still seems insufficient.

dimmke 4y ago
Portugal seriously sucks. The food is bad, and yeah you can see about all there is to see in both Lisboa and Porto in under a week. I was really turned off when I went there in November. I think it's a magnet for this stuff because it's cheaper than the rest of Europe and the government has openly marketed itself to this kind of thing (to the detriment of the citizens, who are being priced out of housing and a lot of whom are leaving for other countries.)
- deanCommie 4y ago
  > The food is bad Dear, your credibility: Goodbye.
  - nmfisher 4y ago
    Never been, but after visiting Spain last year, I struggle to believe Portugal has bad food.
    - wenc 4y ago
      And I'm here to say that it's not (and I've eaten all over the world). Portuguese food is excellent. Obviously it depends what you like, but the seafood and rice dishes were excellent. And there's also Mozambican food with spicy piri-piri sauce... can't get enough of that.
    - dgellow 4y ago
      In my experience Portuguese food taste wonderfully, definitely something to try out. But it is very rich in lipids and sugar. It’s also quite hard to find interesting things if you’re vegetarian or vegan. I would recommend to try their fish and seafood, it’s fantastic.
  - dimmke 4y ago
    The national dish of Portugal is salted codfish with cabbage. Fucking gross. I will die on this hill I don't care how many downvotes it gets me. You can find Italian restaurants all over the world. Where are all the Portugese restaurants if this cuisine is so brilliant?
    - captaincaveman 4y ago
      Indeed the national dish is not to my taste, I'm not even sure what the USA national dish is, however I suspect it probably isn't the best, despite there being very good food available there. It can be hard to know what to eat and often more importantly where to eat as a tourist, and in Portugal its often (in my experience) the last obvious establishments that are the best (often places you don't even think sell food).
      - js2 4y ago
        > I'm not even sure what the USA national dish Doubt there is one (some might say apple pie) and the only thing I can think of that unites all the different American cuisines and regional variations is the sandwich. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/04/14/dining/field-guide-to-the-sandwich.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/04/14/dining/field-...
      - CRConrad 4y ago
        > I'm not even sure what the USA national dish is Big Mac?
    - heavenlyblue 4y ago
      Italians are quite elitist in their food. It seems like every Italian's live purpose is proving to everyone how good they are at cooking. Spain/Portuguese food isn't snobbish or fancy, but it's generally good. As a matter of fact I find that the baseline for what is bad in these places is actually quite high. That is not the case for your average Italian restaurant around the world. Most of them are not that great.
    - deanCommie 4y ago
      National dish notwithstanding, Portugal has other plenty of great seafood-based dishes. The best National food after Italian (and maybe Japanese) is Georgian, but you don't see their restaurants worldwide either.
  - BrandoElFollito 4y ago
    I am French and I love Portugal. I visited it many times, have Portuguese friends and it is the only country I would be glad to live outside of mine (I travelled the world for 7 years straight). Now with this said, Portuguese food is medium. There are great cheeses, great starters but then it goes downhill. Again, I have nothing but live for that country and people living there, the culture and whynot but food is not the first thing (or the 5th) when I think about Portugal.
    - dimmke 4y ago
      This is a more nuanced version of what I was trying to say. But if the cuisine in a country doesn’t hit for me, it’s a big con. I’m in Mexico right now having a lot of fun
  - toddh 4y ago
    If you are from the US the food is different and is regional. The Algarve is very proud of their traditional seafood. If you aren't used to Mackerel and Cod and Sardines it's hard to get used to. As you move north the dishes change. The bread is awesome everywhere.
- dopidopHN 4y ago
  Out of curiosity, what is good food ?
  - joaomval 4y ago
    big mac
    - asdgwecww 4y ago
      > big mac Here it is ladies and gentleman. Portuguese people love bashing Americans. They have a really narrow minded idea of what an American is, and that's that ("Americans are fat", "Americans are stupid"). Portuguese people consider themselves worldly and educated, which is ironic because for the most part they tend to be extremely provincial. I bet you that the average Californian has tried more foods than the average Portuguese person even knows exist. They don't know much food-wise, that's why they think that salted codfish and cabbage is great food, like someone else mentioned. Source: I was born in Portugal, lived most of my life in Portugal, now moved to the US because Portugal isn't great. Pay is low, services are atrocious, food is hit and miss (but limited in variety), and people are narrow-minded.
      - dopidopHN 4y ago
        So good food is having access to quality world cuisine like Japanese, Ethiopian, Indian, Polish, Italian, Thai …made by people that immigrated from those area recently and cook it the authentic way? That’s how I understand your comment. In that aspect, yes, absolutely. The US provide access to variety of « world cuisine » I bet it’s harder to find good niranja in Lisbon than Columbus, Ohio.
      - tluyben2 4y ago
        > Portuguese people love bashing Americans This is not limited to Portugal though; this sentiment exists in many countries, especially among people who have never been in America. But yeah, like your anecdotal, I have many anecdotes too; like Americans in Thailand saying the food is disgusting; they only went to 5 star hotels with EU/US type food. In Thailand. And that wasn't the first or the last time in Asia. I like eating in the US, and I like to go there and meet new people. I moved to Portugal a few years ago and everyone Portuguese I meet (generally programmers) would like to live in the US, at least a few years. So not sure, guess depends on many things. I guess, like I always say, if you don't like it somewhere, just pack up and leave; good you did as you don't seem to like it. I will move too in a few years, not sure where, but we'll see.
UncleEntity 4y ago
You know, as a (former) native Californian, if I were to use that argument against the people who migrated to California I’d probably be skewed alive.
- sometimeshuman 4y ago
  Are you honestly comparing rich, possibly bored, coastal Californians looking for that new remote beach city to gentrify to ambitious/poor LATAM immigrants seeking a better way of life and employment in coastal California ? Those are very different stories.
  - mbgerring 4y ago
    No, the parent comment is probably referring to obnoxious people with MBAs from Minnesota or wherever who move to LA or SF and complain on the internet about how it’s “like living in a third world country” after 6 months
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
bradlys 4y ago
I wouldn’t know this joy. Literally no one I know who hasn’t lived in SF is ever interested in coming to visit. Even people I know who have family here have instead convinced their family to move away so that they don’t have to visit SF anymore. I’ve been here seven years. Maybe your experience and people who live in LA or SD differs but seems fuckall want to visit SF. None of my friends outside of SF work in tech either. They’re all normies. (Professors, teachers, engineers, sales, etc.) I don’t think people visit SF for fun very much.
jIyajbe 4y ago
Well, for my wife and me, like the featured couple, we moved here to Cascais, where we have leased a 3 bedroom apartment. (We moved from Seattle, not L.A., but most of the dynamics are the same.) The concerns that you raise have not happened to us.We have plenty and frequent meetups with our friends back in the U.S. via Facetime/Zoom/Signal. No, it's not the same as being together in person, but it is "good enough"; we all enjoy ourselves. And, our niece and her husband live in the U.K.; they popped over last weekend, where we got together for dinner in Lisbon, and had a great time, in our native language... A large percentage of the Portuguese people speak and understand some English, and nearly all people under 30 speak English fluently. And no one, ever, has been anything but delighted when we (try to) speak in Portuguese. They are very patient, really want to help us learn their language, and are fine with translation apps. I suppose you could see all of the tourist attractions in Lisbon in a (long) weekend, but living here lets you see so much more; it is a culturally rich and interesting country. As for cultural attachments, I guess I'm not sure what that means; but if it means "people and places being the way I am used to", then I respond that for us, it is fascinating and fun to see how other people and places are; seeing what other ways of doing and thinking are possible. It is an adjustment, definitely, and it may not be for you. It is true that rent prices in Cascais are higher than we had hoped they would be, but they are still significantly lower than what they are in Seattle. Our apartment here is at least half as expensive as it would be in Seattle. And groceries, utilities (including 1Gbs internet), restaurants, consumer goods (e.g. clothes) are dramatically less expensive, as well. And finally: Yes, it is SO MUCH safer here than in Seattle. The constant tension of looking over your shoulder is gone; you have no idea how heavy a mental weight that is until one day it is lifted.
dannyphantom 4y ago
Not to be pedantic but everything listed here would not be missed in the slightest by those with no desire to see their family or have friends that spontaneously make themselves available to you without prior plans. If you are sufficient in French you will certainly have a better experience than being the American stereotype that arrives without learning to speak for yourself prior to arrival.
- da39a3ee 4y ago
  I would argue that someone preparing for life in Portugal by learning French is actually perpetuating the stereotype of Americans that you allude to.
usrn 4y ago
I think California might be defined by the kind of reasoning this couple exhibits.

dimmke 4y ago

Portugal seriously sucks. The food is bad, and yeah you can see about all there is to see in both Lisboa and Porto in under a week. I was really turned off when I went there in November. I think it's a magnet for this stuff because it's cheaper than the rest of Europe and the government has openly marketed itself to this kind of thing (to the detriment of the citizens, who are being priced out of housing and a lot of whom are leaving for other countries.)

deanCommie 4y ago
> The food is bad Dear, your credibility: Goodbye.
- nmfisher 4y ago
  Never been, but after visiting Spain last year, I struggle to believe Portugal has bad food.
  - wenc 4y ago
    And I'm here to say that it's not (and I've eaten all over the world). Portuguese food is excellent. Obviously it depends what you like, but the seafood and rice dishes were excellent. And there's also Mozambican food with spicy piri-piri sauce... can't get enough of that.
  - dgellow 4y ago
    In my experience Portuguese food taste wonderfully, definitely something to try out. But it is very rich in lipids and sugar. It’s also quite hard to find interesting things if you’re vegetarian or vegan. I would recommend to try their fish and seafood, it’s fantastic.
- dimmke 4y ago
  The national dish of Portugal is salted codfish with cabbage. Fucking gross. I will die on this hill I don't care how many downvotes it gets me. You can find Italian restaurants all over the world. Where are all the Portugese restaurants if this cuisine is so brilliant?
  - captaincaveman 4y ago
    Indeed the national dish is not to my taste, I'm not even sure what the USA national dish is, however I suspect it probably isn't the best, despite there being very good food available there. It can be hard to know what to eat and often more importantly where to eat as a tourist, and in Portugal its often (in my experience) the last obvious establishments that are the best (often places you don't even think sell food).
    - js2 4y ago
      > I'm not even sure what the USA national dish Doubt there is one (some might say apple pie) and the only thing I can think of that unites all the different American cuisines and regional variations is the sandwich. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/04/14/dining/field-guide-to-the-sandwich.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/04/14/dining/field-...
    - CRConrad 4y ago
      > I'm not even sure what the USA national dish is Big Mac?
  - heavenlyblue 4y ago
    Italians are quite elitist in their food. It seems like every Italian's live purpose is proving to everyone how good they are at cooking. Spain/Portuguese food isn't snobbish or fancy, but it's generally good. As a matter of fact I find that the baseline for what is bad in these places is actually quite high. That is not the case for your average Italian restaurant around the world. Most of them are not that great.
  - deanCommie 4y ago
    National dish notwithstanding, Portugal has other plenty of great seafood-based dishes. The best National food after Italian (and maybe Japanese) is Georgian, but you don't see their restaurants worldwide either.
- BrandoElFollito 4y ago
  I am French and I love Portugal. I visited it many times, have Portuguese friends and it is the only country I would be glad to live outside of mine (I travelled the world for 7 years straight). Now with this said, Portuguese food is medium. There are great cheeses, great starters but then it goes downhill. Again, I have nothing but live for that country and people living there, the culture and whynot but food is not the first thing (or the 5th) when I think about Portugal.
  - dimmke 4y ago
    This is a more nuanced version of what I was trying to say. But if the cuisine in a country doesn’t hit for me, it’s a big con. I’m in Mexico right now having a lot of fun
- toddh 4y ago
  If you are from the US the food is different and is regional. The Algarve is very proud of their traditional seafood. If you aren't used to Mackerel and Cod and Sardines it's hard to get used to. As you move north the dishes change. The bread is awesome everywhere.
dopidopHN 4y ago
Out of curiosity, what is good food ?
- joaomval 4y ago
  big mac
  - asdgwecww 4y ago
    > big mac Here it is ladies and gentleman. Portuguese people love bashing Americans. They have a really narrow minded idea of what an American is, and that's that ("Americans are fat", "Americans are stupid"). Portuguese people consider themselves worldly and educated, which is ironic because for the most part they tend to be extremely provincial. I bet you that the average Californian has tried more foods than the average Portuguese person even knows exist. They don't know much food-wise, that's why they think that salted codfish and cabbage is great food, like someone else mentioned. Source: I was born in Portugal, lived most of my life in Portugal, now moved to the US because Portugal isn't great. Pay is low, services are atrocious, food is hit and miss (but limited in variety), and people are narrow-minded.
    - dopidopHN 4y ago
      So good food is having access to quality world cuisine like Japanese, Ethiopian, Indian, Polish, Italian, Thai …made by people that immigrated from those area recently and cook it the authentic way? That’s how I understand your comment. In that aspect, yes, absolutely. The US provide access to variety of « world cuisine » I bet it’s harder to find good niranja in Lisbon than Columbus, Ohio.
    - tluyben2 4y ago
      > Portuguese people love bashing Americans This is not limited to Portugal though; this sentiment exists in many countries, especially among people who have never been in America. But yeah, like your anecdotal, I have many anecdotes too; like Americans in Thailand saying the food is disgusting; they only went to 5 star hotels with EU/US type food. In Thailand. And that wasn't the first or the last time in Asia. I like eating in the US, and I like to go there and meet new people. I moved to Portugal a few years ago and everyone Portuguese I meet (generally programmers) would like to live in the US, at least a few years. So not sure, guess depends on many things. I guess, like I always say, if you don't like it somewhere, just pack up and leave; good you did as you don't seem to like it. I will move too in a few years, not sure where, but we'll see.

UncleEntity 4y ago

You know, as a (former) native Californian, if I were to use that argument against the people who migrated to California I’d probably be skewed alive.

sometimeshuman 4y ago
Are you honestly comparing rich, possibly bored, coastal Californians looking for that new remote beach city to gentrify to ambitious/poor LATAM immigrants seeking a better way of life and employment in coastal California ? Those are very different stories.
- mbgerring 4y ago
  No, the parent comment is probably referring to obnoxious people with MBAs from Minnesota or wherever who move to LA or SF and complain on the internet about how it’s “like living in a third world country” after 6 months

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

bradlys 4y ago

I wouldn’t know this joy. Literally no one I know who hasn’t lived in SF is ever interested in coming to visit. Even people I know who have family here have instead convinced their family to move away so that they don’t have to visit SF anymore. I’ve been here seven years. Maybe your experience and people who live in LA or SD differs but seems fuckall want to visit SF. None of my friends outside of SF work in tech either. They’re all normies. (Professors, teachers, engineers, sales, etc.) I don’t think people visit SF for fun very much.

jIyajbe 4y ago

Well, for my wife and me, like the featured couple, we moved here to Cascais, where we have leased a 3 bedroom apartment. (We moved from Seattle, not L.A., but most of the dynamics are the same.) The concerns that you raise have not happened to us.We have plenty and frequent meetups with our friends back in the U.S. via Facetime/Zoom/Signal. No, it's not the same as being together in person, but it is "good enough"; we all enjoy ourselves. And, our niece and her husband live in the U.K.; they popped over last weekend, where we got together for dinner in Lisbon, and had a great time, in our native language... A large percentage of the Portuguese people speak and understand some English, and nearly all people under 30 speak English fluently. And no one, ever, has been anything but delighted when we (try to) speak in Portuguese. They are very patient, really want to help us learn their language, and are fine with translation apps. I suppose you could see all of the tourist attractions in Lisbon in a (long) weekend, but living here lets you see so much more; it is a culturally rich and interesting country. As for cultural attachments, I guess I'm not sure what that means; but if it means "people and places being the way I am used to", then I respond that for us, it is fascinating and fun to see how other people and places are; seeing what other ways of doing and thinking are possible. It is an adjustment, definitely, and it may not be for you. It is true that rent prices in Cascais are higher than we had hoped they would be, but they are still significantly lower than what they are in Seattle. Our apartment here is at least half as expensive as it would be in Seattle. And groceries, utilities (including 1Gbs internet), restaurants, consumer goods (e.g. clothes) are dramatically less expensive, as well. And finally: Yes, it is SO MUCH safer here than in Seattle. The constant tension of looking over your shoulder is gone; you have no idea how heavy a mental weight that is until one day it is lifted.

dannyphantom 4y ago

Not to be pedantic but everything listed here would not be missed in the slightest by those with no desire to see their family or have friends that spontaneously make themselves available to you without prior plans. If you are sufficient in French you will certainly have a better experience than being the American stereotype that arrives without learning to speak for yourself prior to arrival.

da39a3ee 4y ago
I would argue that someone preparing for life in Portugal by learning French is actually perpetuating the stereotype of Americans that you allude to.

usrn 4y ago

I think California might be defined by the kind of reasoning this couple exhibits.