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The reason this narrative lasts is survivorship bias. Those who survive were provided for and did prosper at least to some extent. They are ‘gods chosen’. The

by simonh 4y ago

The reason this narrative lasts is survivorship bias. Those who survive were provided for and did prosper at least to some extent. They are ‘gods chosen’. The untold millions that starved to death or died of disease or oppression get no vote and propagate no religion, yet in a divine universe they were just as much chosen too, just for a different fate. And of course they’re mostly the poor and disadvantaged, while the wealthy by and large tend to do just fine. I think I’ll throw my lot in with the wealthy, thanks.

hprotagonist 4y ago
i'm sorry, the reason "altruism is better, actually" lasts is because all the altruists who could have told you about that are poor and dead, so be like them?
BobbyJo 4y ago
Was there a larger message in your comment than "poor people starve, so no thanks, I wanna be rich"? I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, but if that was it, I think you missed, literally, the entire point of the comment you are responding to. It isn't saying you need to be poor to be godly. It's saying pointing your wealth toward your wants before the needs of your neighbors is wrong. Taking care of your own needs before the needs of others is martyrdom, and I don't think anything said above was saying that was required, or even suggested. One final thought: >while the wealthy by and large tend to do just fine Is debatable. In times of peace and prosperity, yes, they certainly do. In times of turmoil however, they are often the first to suffer, because they grow sure that money will carry the same weight in all social orders, which is not true. People, without fail, look around for the reason there isn't enough to go around, and the first thing they see is the castle in the hill.
- mLuby 4y ago
  > In times of turmoil however, they are often the first to suffer In times of turmoil the rich buy first-class tickets out of there and head to one of their secondary mansions. Too late for a ticket? Bribes will still get the job done. And anyway it's turmoil, so food-/shelter-/safety-insecure people always suffer earliest and most.
- simonh 4y ago
  >God brings down the mighty from their thrones and lifts up the lowly; about how God fills the hungry with good things and sends the rich away empty There's nothing anywhere in that quote or analysis that talks about giving to the poor or helping your neighbour. It says god will do that, not that we should do that. In fact how are we supposed to help our neighbours and uplift them in times of need if we're poor and have no surplus? The bible tells us not to worry about that, god will provide. I know that other parts of the bible tell us to give our wealth to the poor, but actually supporting the poor is not our problem. God will do it. Giving away our wealth isn't functional, it's not with the goal of solving poverty, it's with the goal of impoverishing ourselves so that we become virtuous because otherwise we will be punished.
ComradePhil 4y ago
Or that certain groups of people survive because the ideologies that they adopt help their group compete with people of other ideologies... and people with successful ideologies are able to convert others from less successful ones.
kragen 4y ago
Societies made of selfish people die out, and before dying out they impoverish themselves, because human interaction is not zero-sum. Narratives promoting altruism last because people can observe the misery selfishness causes. Cooperation, not rationality, is the fundamental advantage the humans have over other animals. Historically altruism was the most important form of cooperation, and trade was secondary. Now we have additional modes of cooperation like science, law, employment, and free software; and trade has also improved its powers dramatically. But they cannot substitute for altruism in all situations.
- simonh 4y ago
  Sooo... they all had it coming? I know that's the Bible's take on things, but I'm not sure how well that is supported by actual history.
  - kragen 4y ago
    You've probably met people who rendered their own lives miserable and poor through selfishness and distrust. More, probably, than who rendered their own lives miserable and poor through getting ripped off when being too trusting. In my own experience they are abundant.
    - simonh 4y ago
      My closest friend, (I set him up with his wife), lost his job in the financial crisis and then had his life ruined by a severe illness that’s still crippled him. He lost everything. My wife is a nurse, one of her friends at work lost her sister to cancer, her husband was killed in an accident and now she has terminal cancer. She has a young daughter. How often on the news do we see third world countries devastated by natural disasters like tsunami, volcanoes, storms and floods. I remember the famines in Africa. I particularly remember the aids epidemic and the way conservative Christian politicians in the US particularly said it was gods justice. Government spokesmen made jokes about it in news conferences. They thought it was funny. I was otherwise a Thatcher/Reagan conservative, but I’m not forgetting that, ever. It’s what made me realise no political faction has a monopoly on the truth or morality.

by simonh 4y ago

hprotagonist 4y ago

i'm sorry, the reason "altruism is better, actually" lasts is because all the altruists who could have told you about that are poor and dead, so be like them?

BobbyJo 4y ago

Was there a larger message in your comment than "poor people starve, so no thanks, I wanna be rich"? I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, but if that was it, I think you missed, literally, the entire point of the comment you are responding to. It isn't saying you need to be poor to be godly. It's saying pointing your wealth toward your wants before the needs of your neighbors is wrong. Taking care of your own needs before the needs of others is martyrdom, and I don't think anything said above was saying that was required, or even suggested. One final thought: >while the wealthy by and large tend to do just fine Is debatable. In times of peace and prosperity, yes, they certainly do. In times of turmoil however, they are often the first to suffer, because they grow sure that money will carry the same weight in all social orders, which is not true. People, without fail, look around for the reason there isn't enough to go around, and the first thing they see is the castle in the hill.

mLuby 4y ago
> In times of turmoil however, they are often the first to suffer In times of turmoil the rich buy first-class tickets out of there and head to one of their secondary mansions. Too late for a ticket? Bribes will still get the job done. And anyway it's turmoil, so food-/shelter-/safety-insecure people always suffer earliest and most.
simonh 4y ago
>God brings down the mighty from their thrones and lifts up the lowly; about how God fills the hungry with good things and sends the rich away empty There's nothing anywhere in that quote or analysis that talks about giving to the poor or helping your neighbour. It says god will do that, not that we should do that. In fact how are we supposed to help our neighbours and uplift them in times of need if we're poor and have no surplus? The bible tells us not to worry about that, god will provide. I know that other parts of the bible tell us to give our wealth to the poor, but actually supporting the poor is not our problem. God will do it. Giving away our wealth isn't functional, it's not with the goal of solving poverty, it's with the goal of impoverishing ourselves so that we become virtuous because otherwise we will be punished.

ComradePhil 4y ago

Or that certain groups of people survive because the ideologies that they adopt help their group compete with people of other ideologies... and people with successful ideologies are able to convert others from less successful ones.

kragen 4y ago

Societies made of selfish people die out, and before dying out they impoverish themselves, because human interaction is not zero-sum. Narratives promoting altruism last because people can observe the misery selfishness causes. Cooperation, not rationality, is the fundamental advantage the humans have over other animals. Historically altruism was the most important form of cooperation, and trade was secondary. Now we have additional modes of cooperation like science, law, employment, and free software; and trade has also improved its powers dramatically. But they cannot substitute for altruism in all situations.

simonh 4y ago
Sooo... they all had it coming? I know that's the Bible's take on things, but I'm not sure how well that is supported by actual history.
- kragen 4y ago
  You've probably met people who rendered their own lives miserable and poor through selfishness and distrust. More, probably, than who rendered their own lives miserable and poor through getting ripped off when being too trusting. In my own experience they are abundant.
  - simonh 4y ago
    My closest friend, (I set him up with his wife), lost his job in the financial crisis and then had his life ruined by a severe illness that’s still crippled him. He lost everything. My wife is a nurse, one of her friends at work lost her sister to cancer, her husband was killed in an accident and now she has terminal cancer. She has a young daughter. How often on the news do we see third world countries devastated by natural disasters like tsunami, volcanoes, storms and floods. I remember the famines in Africa. I particularly remember the aids epidemic and the way conservative Christian politicians in the US particularly said it was gods justice. Government spokesmen made jokes about it in news conferences. They thought it was funny. I was otherwise a Thatcher/Reagan conservative, but I’m not forgetting that, ever. It’s what made me realise no political faction has a monopoly on the truth or morality.