3 ms·

I've done some thinking over this and reading of the history, but I don't know that I disagree with any of your points, and clearly what you've said is factual.

I've done some thinking over this and reading of the history, but I don't know that I disagree with any of your points, and clearly what you've said is factual. I mostly disagree from an opinion standpoint. Particularly the following statement. > The EU is optimised for ensuring basically nobody is doing anything against their will To me, just because representatives from member states vote for something, it doesn't mean that individuals aren't being made to do something against their will. Democracy itself always gives rights to the majority against the will of the minority. On top of that their are many issues with representative democracy to begin with including media manipulation and corruption. As a defensive mechanism against other blocs I see your point, and its a catch 22. Governments are generally the cause of major wars. So, it feels counterintuitive to band together as another larger government with centralized control. I wish that people would never rationalize "following orders." If that alone went away, then governments would become impotent. I'll try to do some more research regarding my original post and get back to here again. These are just some of my initial thoughts. At this point, nobody else is watching this comment thread, so it's really just a discussion between you and I. No need to prove anything, so I'll try to be correct, researched, take my time. Good chatting, and I'll follow up again in another day or so. Cheers!

dijit 4y ago
Thanks for taking the time to think about it. > Democracy itself always gives rights to the majority against the will of the minority. this is true and it has a name I believe; the "Tyranny of the Majority", I think. > The tyranny of the majority (or tyranny of the masses) is an inherent weakness to majority rule in which the majority of an electorate pursues exclusively its own objectives at the expense of those of the minority factions. Unfortunately, as you mentioned, being _more democratic_ ultimately lends itself to being this way. However one neat trick the EU has (and I promise I'm not trying to spin this as pro-EU, as it's only in one place): is that the direct votes are split proportionally. This means that lesser represented groups get a voice in the EU parliament. For the UK with their "First past the post" system, and winner take all government; where a party like UKIP can get 12.6% of all votes and win 0 representation in parliament.... well, lets say it's a stark contrast. explained very nicely; here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9rGX91rq5I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9rGX91rq5I The EU voting system (the way in which we elect MEPs to parliament) is detailed in this video by the BBC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CU3F3ToIIg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CU3F3ToIIg ; as you'll see it's much more representative. I know of other videos that speak pragmatically about the EU, its problems and if it's worth it (though with a slight pro-EU stance): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4Uu5eyN6VU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4Uu5eyN6VU I also found this video that asks the question if the EU is democratic, which I think makes good points and you can draw different conclusions from it: https://youtu.be/XxutY7ss1v4 https://youtu.be/XxutY7ss1v4 I like this explanation of what the EU even is, since you mentioned you might not be informed I think it's beneficial and very impartial (and pre-brexit): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O37yJBFRrfg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O37yJBFRrfg
- reedjosh 4y ago
  > However one neat trick the EU has (and I promise I'm not trying to spin this as pro-EU, as it's only in one place): is that the direct votes are split proportionally. This means that lesser represented groups get a voice in the EU parliament. That's pretty cool. There are a lot of voting systems that make a ton more sense than first past the post. One of my favorites on the topic is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo CGP Grey's video uses animals and whatnot. It's cute, but then he talks about alternatives and it's clear anything would be better than first past the post. In the US, this is one of many reasons why I'm cynical about the federal government. Everyone knows our voting system is useless--none more than the politicians in the system. But, once they're in the system, they're taking advantage of it and never bother with voting system reforms. I also still mostly disagree with governments in general. A group of people shouldn't be allowed the rights a single person doesn't have. No matter the system, there are people in it that never agreed to be a part of it. That said, from a pragmatic standpoint it doesn't really matter. As you've mentioned, it's dog-eat-dog out there. I've been fairly busy these past few days, but I'll make it a point to watch the videos you've linked today (not to exceed 1hr of viewing--I haven't checked the length, lol).

dijit 4y ago

Thanks for taking the time to think about it. > Democracy itself always gives rights to the majority against the will of the minority. this is true and it has a name I believe; the "Tyranny of the Majority", I think. > The tyranny of the majority (or tyranny of the masses) is an inherent weakness to majority rule in which the majority of an electorate pursues exclusively its own objectives at the expense of those of the minority factions. Unfortunately, as you mentioned, being _more democratic_ ultimately lends itself to being this way. However one neat trick the EU has (and I promise I'm not trying to spin this as pro-EU, as it's only in one place): is that the direct votes are split proportionally. This means that lesser represented groups get a voice in the EU parliament. For the UK with their "First past the post" system, and winner take all government; where a party like UKIP can get 12.6% of all votes and win 0 representation in parliament.... well, lets say it's a stark contrast. explained very nicely; here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9rGX91rq5I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9rGX91rq5I The EU voting system (the way in which we elect MEPs to parliament) is detailed in this video by the BBC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CU3F3ToIIg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CU3F3ToIIg ; as you'll see it's much more representative. I know of other videos that speak pragmatically about the EU, its problems and if it's worth it (though with a slight pro-EU stance): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4Uu5eyN6VU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4Uu5eyN6VU I also found this video that asks the question if the EU is democratic, which I think makes good points and you can draw different conclusions from it: https://youtu.be/XxutY7ss1v4 https://youtu.be/XxutY7ss1v4 I like this explanation of what the EU even is, since you mentioned you might not be informed I think it's beneficial and very impartial (and pre-brexit): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O37yJBFRrfg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O37yJBFRrfg

reedjosh 4y ago
> However one neat trick the EU has (and I promise I'm not trying to spin this as pro-EU, as it's only in one place): is that the direct votes are split proportionally. This means that lesser represented groups get a voice in the EU parliament. That's pretty cool. There are a lot of voting systems that make a ton more sense than first past the post. One of my favorites on the topic is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo CGP Grey's video uses animals and whatnot. It's cute, but then he talks about alternatives and it's clear anything would be better than first past the post. In the US, this is one of many reasons why I'm cynical about the federal government. Everyone knows our voting system is useless--none more than the politicians in the system. But, once they're in the system, they're taking advantage of it and never bother with voting system reforms. I also still mostly disagree with governments in general. A group of people shouldn't be allowed the rights a single person doesn't have. No matter the system, there are people in it that never agreed to be a part of it. That said, from a pragmatic standpoint it doesn't really matter. As you've mentioned, it's dog-eat-dog out there. I've been fairly busy these past few days, but I'll make it a point to watch the videos you've linked today (not to exceed 1hr of viewing--I haven't checked the length, lol).