6 ms·

Just a spring cleaning that is about a decade late. Twitter under-performs in every aspect imaginable: financially, product quality, product innovation. Nothin

by fleddr 4y ago

Just a spring cleaning that is about a decade late. Twitter under-performs in every aspect imaginable: financially, product quality, product innovation. Nothing ever gets released and whilst this pace has improved in recent years, those "innovations" don't really deliver. They're barely used, copycats from other apps, and so on. Meanwhile, age-old problems are never addressed, like bots and the extremely hostile mob mentality on the platform. They're ineffective and lack accountability. They need a reset and mentality change.

themitigating 4y ago
How would they control mob mentality?
- fleddr 4y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31160916 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31160916 See above comment thread from another discussion, first reply is from me.
  - kbenson 4y ago
    Those may help, but I'm not sure what they could do other than breaking the core conceit of their platform (short form, limited space) to really deal with it. Limited space to express your intent, and the quick response cycle it engenders are not conducive to productive discussion. It's hot-takes and terse replies that people interpret as hostile even if they weren't meant as such all the way down. Take that out and what makes Twitter any different than every other platform? Though, maybe they're large enough and popular enough they could weather that change.
  - dmix 4y ago
    > (e) Make it possible to prevent retweets (including quote retweets) from certain accounts you follow from showing up on your timeline. There are certain people you might like who retweet effluent, and you don't want that effluent going straight into your eyeballs. There's many good points here. This is the best. They need to assume the content kinda sucks and let people control as much as possible, instead of thinking that AI is doing a good enough job for them.
  - themitigating 4y ago
    That's a decent plan. I like how you mention punishing false reports, I wish reputation had more value on social networks though they would have to protect against bots that boost it. Couple of questions: 1.Normally when you report something as a violation of the rule and the moderators determine it is not a violation that might not be objective. "Hate Speech" for example is not objective even if you provide examples. - How would you prevent people from being punished unfairly. - Right now a false report has no consequences. Wouldn't reporting go down since people would want to avoid a punishment? 2. In detecting mob patterns how would you determine if it's not just everyone getting on to tweet about a current event and if you rate limit it doesn't that mean some people would be censored and others not simply based on time? 3. Related to the other limits you mentioned, such as number of retweets. What prevents people from opening multiple accounts or bots? 4. Assume the above three are solved wouldn't this put the business at a disadvantage due to both decreased ad revenue and competitors who don't have these rules?
DantesKite 4y ago
You're 100% correct. They shut down Vine. TikTok is now a billion dollar industry. As far as I'm concerned, every product manager involved in that decision shouldn't be involved with Twitter anymore, because they display an astonishingly level of incompetence.
- throwaway-jim 4y ago
  I will never understand this. I thought vine was going to be the next big thing right until the day they decided to shut it down.
  - mhh__ 4y ago
    The fact that vine as a name and at least some vines are still at least somewhat prevalent online, makes me think that vine literally was "already" the next big thing and twitter just completely misread the room.
    - vmception 4y ago
      yeah, people are still reconnecting with vine creators, on TikTok. You can see in the comments, a video came up on the user's feed and they were compelled enough to be like "are you so and so from vine!?" Vine was killed half a decade ago.
      - mynameisvlad 4y ago
        And YouTube. Some of the biggest commentary channels used to be Viners. The fact that it was shut down when it was is testament to how badly Twitter misplayed their hand with it. Every single creator flocked to whatever platform would take them at the time.
  - warning26 4y ago
    "Twitter supports videos now, therefore Vine is redundant! Shut it down and 100% of Vine users will post their videos on Twitter!" —Twitter PMs, probably
pnathan 4y ago
I do have to agree that Twitter is either (1) basically perfected or (2) coasting. I also might suggest that the buyout offer has prompted some very hard thinking internally and strategic changes.
- kranke155 4y ago
  I would say twitter threads need robust support and the edit button is sorely missed. But yes in a way the paralysis that Twitter is in is interesting in a world where everything is being changed always all the time in agile cycles. Twitter feels like it just exists and this is the way it works.
  - Graffur 4y ago
    If they introduce an edit feature people will abuse it in the following ways: * Bait and switch. Now replies to the original tweet will be out of context * Everyone will edit their tweet and put EDIT: <Comment addressing all of the replies> at the end. This is what happens on Reddit.
    - dave5104 4y ago
      > * Bait and switch. Now replies to the original tweet will be out of context I used to think this could be a problem too... but Reddit has had an edit button as long as I can remember, and bait and switch doesn't really seem to be much of a problem. Perhaps it'd be more troublesome with the concept of retweets or quote tweets?
      - nullc 4y ago
        > I used to think this could be a problem too... but Reddit has had an edit button as long as I can remember, and bait and switch doesn't really seem to be much of a problem. Anyone who does it enough to be irritating (instead of funny) will just find themselves banned by subreddit mods or otherwise they're doing it in a subreddit where it doesn't matter and no one will care. The same community controls don't exist in twitter, so its plausible that it might be more damaging there. But so what? Many of the benefits are clear, the risks speculative. They could mitigate with a history button. Wikipedia lets arbitrary users edit other users posts and gets by just fine-- not just the encyclopedia pages but the discussion pages too. Part of that is because it has a history so funny business is easily caught, but part of it is that if you give people more way to behaving unambiguously abusively if they intentionally chose to do so, some people will take you up on the offer and you can just remove them from the platform without regret. In that case everyone will be better off than if they didn't have the option to shoot themselves in the foot to begin with.
AviationAtom 4y ago
I've learned that, when speaking with a certain half of society, any narrative other than Twitter's future being bleak, and it current state good, is not accepted. Twitter has huge monetary potential, and adoption potential (beyond the niche audience it current has), but if the status quo is kept them that potential will likely never be realized.
- Traster 4y ago
  Honestly I've not heard anyone say that Twitter's current state is good. Yo're literally taling about a company that has somehow managed to stay flat whlist all their competitors are up multiples. Sure, people think Musk won't make it better, but no one thinks twitter is doing well.
ilamont 4y ago
> Twitter under-performs [in] product innovation. I see things differently. The number of customer-facing feature releases in recent years has been significant. Yes, some are irritating (GIF integration). Others miss the mark (endless iterations of topics/explore/algo changes). Still others haven't been attempted but are sorely needed (editing tweets, clear verified account policies). But a few innovations are trying to solve real problems identified by subsets of users (Twitter Professional, Twitter Blue) or help everyone a lot (photos, doubling tweet length, improvements to RT functionality, reporting tools). Another thing to keep in mind: When discussion forums try to shoehorn too many things into the feature set, often to compete with other platforms, the results can alienate existing users. I see this with Instagram bolting on TikTok-like features, to the detriment of everyone who just likes to share photos. (I am thankful most of HN's feature improvements have been restrained. Slashdot tried to do too much with new features, and it hurt rather than helped the community)
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
croes 4y ago
>like bots and the extremely hostile mob mentality There isn't a solution for these two.
- vkou 4y ago
  There is, but it's called moderation when you agree with it, and censorship when you don't.
  - Sebb767 4y ago
    And for whatever action you do, the majority will usually think you're wrong. But, on the plus side, you're also wrong when you are "providing a platform for it" (aka not doing anything). I'm always surprised at how well dang manages this, although he definitely receives his share of critic from all sides, too.
  - croes 4y ago
    How many people would you need to monitor all tweets in all used languages?
Vladimof 4y ago
> Twitter under-performs in every aspect imaginable They are pretty good at banning external services...
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
pcurve 4y ago
as a non twitter user, their biggest contribution to the humanity is actually Bootstrap, and I actually say that with all due respect.
- seydor 4y ago
  as a bootstrap user i agree

by fleddr 4y ago

themitigating 4y ago

How would they control mob mentality?

fleddr 4y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31160916 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31160916 See above comment thread from another discussion, first reply is from me.
- kbenson 4y ago
  Those may help, but I'm not sure what they could do other than breaking the core conceit of their platform (short form, limited space) to really deal with it. Limited space to express your intent, and the quick response cycle it engenders are not conducive to productive discussion. It's hot-takes and terse replies that people interpret as hostile even if they weren't meant as such all the way down. Take that out and what makes Twitter any different than every other platform? Though, maybe they're large enough and popular enough they could weather that change.
- dmix 4y ago
  > (e) Make it possible to prevent retweets (including quote retweets) from certain accounts you follow from showing up on your timeline. There are certain people you might like who retweet effluent, and you don't want that effluent going straight into your eyeballs. There's many good points here. This is the best. They need to assume the content kinda sucks and let people control as much as possible, instead of thinking that AI is doing a good enough job for them.
- themitigating 4y ago
  That's a decent plan. I like how you mention punishing false reports, I wish reputation had more value on social networks though they would have to protect against bots that boost it. Couple of questions: 1.Normally when you report something as a violation of the rule and the moderators determine it is not a violation that might not be objective. "Hate Speech" for example is not objective even if you provide examples. - How would you prevent people from being punished unfairly. - Right now a false report has no consequences. Wouldn't reporting go down since people would want to avoid a punishment? 2. In detecting mob patterns how would you determine if it's not just everyone getting on to tweet about a current event and if you rate limit it doesn't that mean some people would be censored and others not simply based on time? 3. Related to the other limits you mentioned, such as number of retweets. What prevents people from opening multiple accounts or bots? 4. Assume the above three are solved wouldn't this put the business at a disadvantage due to both decreased ad revenue and competitors who don't have these rules?

DantesKite 4y ago

You're 100% correct. They shut down Vine. TikTok is now a billion dollar industry. As far as I'm concerned, every product manager involved in that decision shouldn't be involved with Twitter anymore, because they display an astonishingly level of incompetence.

throwaway-jim 4y ago
I will never understand this. I thought vine was going to be the next big thing right until the day they decided to shut it down.
- mhh__ 4y ago
  The fact that vine as a name and at least some vines are still at least somewhat prevalent online, makes me think that vine literally was "already" the next big thing and twitter just completely misread the room.
  - vmception 4y ago
    yeah, people are still reconnecting with vine creators, on TikTok. You can see in the comments, a video came up on the user's feed and they were compelled enough to be like "are you so and so from vine!?" Vine was killed half a decade ago.
    - mynameisvlad 4y ago
      And YouTube. Some of the biggest commentary channels used to be Viners. The fact that it was shut down when it was is testament to how badly Twitter misplayed their hand with it. Every single creator flocked to whatever platform would take them at the time.
- warning26 4y ago
  "Twitter supports videos now, therefore Vine is redundant! Shut it down and 100% of Vine users will post their videos on Twitter!" —Twitter PMs, probably

pnathan 4y ago

I do have to agree that Twitter is either (1) basically perfected or (2) coasting. I also might suggest that the buyout offer has prompted some very hard thinking internally and strategic changes.

kranke155 4y ago
I would say twitter threads need robust support and the edit button is sorely missed. But yes in a way the paralysis that Twitter is in is interesting in a world where everything is being changed always all the time in agile cycles. Twitter feels like it just exists and this is the way it works.
- Graffur 4y ago
  If they introduce an edit feature people will abuse it in the following ways: * Bait and switch. Now replies to the original tweet will be out of context * Everyone will edit their tweet and put EDIT: <Comment addressing all of the replies> at the end. This is what happens on Reddit.
  - dave5104 4y ago
    > * Bait and switch. Now replies to the original tweet will be out of context I used to think this could be a problem too... but Reddit has had an edit button as long as I can remember, and bait and switch doesn't really seem to be much of a problem. Perhaps it'd be more troublesome with the concept of retweets or quote tweets?
    - nullc 4y ago
      > I used to think this could be a problem too... but Reddit has had an edit button as long as I can remember, and bait and switch doesn't really seem to be much of a problem. Anyone who does it enough to be irritating (instead of funny) will just find themselves banned by subreddit mods or otherwise they're doing it in a subreddit where it doesn't matter and no one will care. The same community controls don't exist in twitter, so its plausible that it might be more damaging there. But so what? Many of the benefits are clear, the risks speculative. They could mitigate with a history button. Wikipedia lets arbitrary users edit other users posts and gets by just fine-- not just the encyclopedia pages but the discussion pages too. Part of that is because it has a history so funny business is easily caught, but part of it is that if you give people more way to behaving unambiguously abusively if they intentionally chose to do so, some people will take you up on the offer and you can just remove them from the platform without regret. In that case everyone will be better off than if they didn't have the option to shoot themselves in the foot to begin with.

AviationAtom 4y ago

I've learned that, when speaking with a certain half of society, any narrative other than Twitter's future being bleak, and it current state good, is not accepted. Twitter has huge monetary potential, and adoption potential (beyond the niche audience it current has), but if the status quo is kept them that potential will likely never be realized.

Traster 4y ago
Honestly I've not heard anyone say that Twitter's current state is good. Yo're literally taling about a company that has somehow managed to stay flat whlist all their competitors are up multiples. Sure, people think Musk won't make it better, but no one thinks twitter is doing well.

ilamont 4y ago

> Twitter under-performs [in] product innovation. I see things differently. The number of customer-facing feature releases in recent years has been significant. Yes, some are irritating (GIF integration). Others miss the mark (endless iterations of topics/explore/algo changes). Still others haven't been attempted but are sorely needed (editing tweets, clear verified account policies). But a few innovations are trying to solve real problems identified by subsets of users (Twitter Professional, Twitter Blue) or help everyone a lot (photos, doubling tweet length, improvements to RT functionality, reporting tools). Another thing to keep in mind: When discussion forums try to shoehorn too many things into the feature set, often to compete with other platforms, the results can alienate existing users. I see this with Instagram bolting on TikTok-like features, to the detriment of everyone who just likes to share photos. (I am thankful most of HN's feature improvements have been restrained. Slashdot tried to do too much with new features, and it hurt rather than helped the community)

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

croes 4y ago

>like bots and the extremely hostile mob mentality There isn't a solution for these two.

vkou 4y ago
There is, but it's called moderation when you agree with it, and censorship when you don't.
- Sebb767 4y ago
  And for whatever action you do, the majority will usually think you're wrong. But, on the plus side, you're also wrong when you are "providing a platform for it" (aka not doing anything). I'm always surprised at how well dang manages this, although he definitely receives his share of critic from all sides, too.
- croes 4y ago
  How many people would you need to monitor all tweets in all used languages?

Vladimof 4y ago

> Twitter under-performs in every aspect imaginable They are pretty good at banning external services...

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

pcurve 4y ago

as a non twitter user, their biggest contribution to the humanity is actually Bootstrap, and I actually say that with all due respect.

seydor 4y ago
as a bootstrap user i agree