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I follow climate change for a while. Especially the co2 concentration in our air, wild fires, droughts etc. I'm looking forward to burning less resources for

I follow climate change for a while. Especially the co2 concentration in our air, wild fires, droughts etc. I'm looking forward to burning less resources for just hashes. I'm also getting tired of having the same fruitless discussions. There are a lot of people who have never thought about a ton of implications of crypto. Real issues are ignored, unknown, or just never even mentioned.

olalonde 4y ago
Proof-of-work works fine with clean energy. You should direct your concerns at polluting forms of energy sources.
- blibble 4y ago
  that would be fine logic if we had unlimited clean energy unfortunately as its supply is limited... it being consumed for useless work means it can't be used for useful work, and as a result dirty energy is being generated for that instead
  - New_California 4y ago
    You have it all backwards. The PoW is useful work because it helps secure my hard-earned savings against very high inflation my country is dealing with (I store my savings in Bitcoin). While many other (non-PoW) energy uses you have in mind are useless for me.
    - blibble 4y ago
      there's plenty of other assets that can be used as an inflation hedge (e.g. precious metals, inflation linked bonds, etc) none of which require burning hundreds of barrels of oil a day calculating quadrillions of sha1 hashes to keep their value from collapsing and if you don't want to physically hold them then there's ETFs for that
    - Mehringotio 4y ago
  - cdiddy2 4y ago
    What about when clean energy is negatively priced would you be ok using bitcoin miners to make it more economical then?
    - Mehringotio 4y ago
      No. Bitcoin would still compete for other things which are much more critical toost people on our planet. Things like a storage battery. Or melting aluminum or other ors.
      - cdiddy2 4y ago
        Things like a storage battery - we already have a battery shortage with not enough to power electric car manufacturing. Or melting aluminum or other ors - this doesn't work because the load is extremely fickle. You have to be able to turn on/off easily and frequently. other things can certainly come along and compete for the power. Its not like bitcoin mining isn't price bound. It always seeks the cheapest energy regardless of location
        Mehringotio 4y ago
        I only brought examples. We are in such a bad place from a co2 point of view, if my examples don't work, we need to incentive to find better things. Bitcoin is not better. It probably still consumes more wasted than just keep burning it. After all the mining itself needs cooling (ac), Asics miners and local infrastructure (a gas engine)
- yabones 4y ago
  There is no clean energy, just some that are cleaner than others. For every solar panel, there's a pile of toxic garbage that must be dealt with after ~20 years. It's unquestionably better than the billions of tonnes of CO2 that would be produced by the equivalent coal plant, but it's still a problem. There is no "ethical consumption" of cryptocurrency.
  - cdiddy2 4y ago
    Why is it ethical for you to fly in a plane and run your clothes drier but not for someone in Afghanistan to buy food and protect their money by using bitcoin?
    - Mehringotio 4y ago
      Who said that? No one. Don't use a strawman argument. And independent of this issue: there are of course things which are objectively better for that person in Afghanistan and objectively better for everyone. Your poor Afghanistan person might like to have less heat waves than Bitcoin because he might not have enough money anyway to save it away as Bitcoin. Normally those countries use dollar or euro anyway. It's much easier for them than being able to remember a Bitcoin wallet
      - cdiddy2 4y ago
        The US sanctioned them, they can't use dollars or euros https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-60715707 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-60715707
        Mehringotio 4y ago
        In this case it's our responsibility not to undermine those sanctions. While I'm not an expert in Afghanistan politics, I follow the Russian war and don't think we should support them by providing bitcoins
        cdiddy2 4y ago
- kec 4y ago
  Increased energy usage is increased energy usage. The underlying argument here is proof of working isn't actually burning this energy for any useful purpose and the excess clean energy production should be directly offsetting dirty energy production instead.
  - New_California 4y ago
    The purpose is to secure my savings against inflation and confiscation. It is a very useful thing, I assure you.
    - AlexandrB 4y ago
      So the US posted some nasty inflation numbers, and crypto... tanked relative to USD. How is this securing your savings against inflation?
  - cdiddy2 4y ago
    This is not true. If you take a bitcoin miner and put it on a gas well that is leaking methane which is 10x worse than CO2 and burn that methane to create CO2 you are increasing energy usage and cleaning the environment. https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-05-03/methane-is-a-big-climate-problem-that-bitcoin-can-help-solve https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-05-03/methan... If you have already mined coal burning in a field and instead take that coal and put it through a generator and mine bitcoin with it you are using more energy and cleaning up emissions. https://www.wesa.fm/environment-energy/2022-01-31/how-waste-coal-is-fueling-bitcoin-in-pennsylvania https://www.wesa.fm/environment-energy/2022-01-31/how-waste-... In a lot of places in the midwest up to 25% of wind or solar energy is priced at a negative level, this means they are paying to produce energy. Setting up a bitcoin miner is perfect because it can be quickly turned on/off and doesn't require consistent power like most manufacturing or other energy intense activities. This makes renewables more economical. This goes into all of this as well. https://niccarter.info/wp-content/uploads/txsummit_nc_oct08.pdf https://niccarter.info/wp-content/uploads/txsummit_nc_oct08....
    - kec 4y ago
- phatfish 4y ago
  When there is a global surplus of clean energy then we can look to burn it on a distributed global casino. Until then there are countless better ways to use it. And yes, Crypto isn't the only wasteful use of energy, but it sure is the most obnoxious.
mirceal 4y ago
> I'm looking forward to burning less resources for just hashes. you do not understand or don't want to understand why those hashes are necessary. Are you okay with burning resources for running a bloated financial system or sponsoring "innovators" out of public money? Are you okay with the money you worked hard for to literally lose value due to inflation? Are you okay with a society where if we stop producing and consuming all but things we really need we will be rewarded with a financial crash?
- Mehringotio 4y ago
  - mirceal 4y ago
    - Mehringotio 4y ago
      - mirceal 4y ago
        Mehringotio 4y ago

olalonde 4y ago

Proof-of-work works fine with clean energy. You should direct your concerns at polluting forms of energy sources.

blibble 4y ago
that would be fine logic if we had unlimited clean energy unfortunately as its supply is limited... it being consumed for useless work means it can't be used for useful work, and as a result dirty energy is being generated for that instead
- New_California 4y ago
  You have it all backwards. The PoW is useful work because it helps secure my hard-earned savings against very high inflation my country is dealing with (I store my savings in Bitcoin). While many other (non-PoW) energy uses you have in mind are useless for me.
  - blibble 4y ago
    there's plenty of other assets that can be used as an inflation hedge (e.g. precious metals, inflation linked bonds, etc) none of which require burning hundreds of barrels of oil a day calculating quadrillions of sha1 hashes to keep their value from collapsing and if you don't want to physically hold them then there's ETFs for that
  - Mehringotio 4y ago
- cdiddy2 4y ago
  What about when clean energy is negatively priced would you be ok using bitcoin miners to make it more economical then?
  - Mehringotio 4y ago
    No. Bitcoin would still compete for other things which are much more critical toost people on our planet. Things like a storage battery. Or melting aluminum or other ors.
    - cdiddy2 4y ago
      Things like a storage battery - we already have a battery shortage with not enough to power electric car manufacturing. Or melting aluminum or other ors - this doesn't work because the load is extremely fickle. You have to be able to turn on/off easily and frequently. other things can certainly come along and compete for the power. Its not like bitcoin mining isn't price bound. It always seeks the cheapest energy regardless of location
      - Mehringotio 4y ago
        I only brought examples. We are in such a bad place from a co2 point of view, if my examples don't work, we need to incentive to find better things. Bitcoin is not better. It probably still consumes more wasted than just keep burning it. After all the mining itself needs cooling (ac), Asics miners and local infrastructure (a gas engine)
yabones 4y ago
There is no clean energy, just some that are cleaner than others. For every solar panel, there's a pile of toxic garbage that must be dealt with after ~20 years. It's unquestionably better than the billions of tonnes of CO2 that would be produced by the equivalent coal plant, but it's still a problem. There is no "ethical consumption" of cryptocurrency.
- cdiddy2 4y ago
  Why is it ethical for you to fly in a plane and run your clothes drier but not for someone in Afghanistan to buy food and protect their money by using bitcoin?
  - Mehringotio 4y ago
    Who said that? No one. Don't use a strawman argument. And independent of this issue: there are of course things which are objectively better for that person in Afghanistan and objectively better for everyone. Your poor Afghanistan person might like to have less heat waves than Bitcoin because he might not have enough money anyway to save it away as Bitcoin. Normally those countries use dollar or euro anyway. It's much easier for them than being able to remember a Bitcoin wallet
    - cdiddy2 4y ago
      The US sanctioned them, they can't use dollars or euros https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-60715707 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-60715707
      - Mehringotio 4y ago
        In this case it's our responsibility not to undermine those sanctions. While I'm not an expert in Afghanistan politics, I follow the Russian war and don't think we should support them by providing bitcoins
        cdiddy2 4y ago
kec 4y ago
Increased energy usage is increased energy usage. The underlying argument here is proof of working isn't actually burning this energy for any useful purpose and the excess clean energy production should be directly offsetting dirty energy production instead.
- New_California 4y ago
  The purpose is to secure my savings against inflation and confiscation. It is a very useful thing, I assure you.
  - AlexandrB 4y ago
    So the US posted some nasty inflation numbers, and crypto... tanked relative to USD. How is this securing your savings against inflation?
- cdiddy2 4y ago
  This is not true. If you take a bitcoin miner and put it on a gas well that is leaking methane which is 10x worse than CO2 and burn that methane to create CO2 you are increasing energy usage and cleaning the environment. https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-05-03/methane-is-a-big-climate-problem-that-bitcoin-can-help-solve https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-05-03/methan... If you have already mined coal burning in a field and instead take that coal and put it through a generator and mine bitcoin with it you are using more energy and cleaning up emissions. https://www.wesa.fm/environment-energy/2022-01-31/how-waste-coal-is-fueling-bitcoin-in-pennsylvania https://www.wesa.fm/environment-energy/2022-01-31/how-waste-... In a lot of places in the midwest up to 25% of wind or solar energy is priced at a negative level, this means they are paying to produce energy. Setting up a bitcoin miner is perfect because it can be quickly turned on/off and doesn't require consistent power like most manufacturing or other energy intense activities. This makes renewables more economical. This goes into all of this as well. https://niccarter.info/wp-content/uploads/txsummit_nc_oct08.pdf https://niccarter.info/wp-content/uploads/txsummit_nc_oct08....
  - kec 4y ago
phatfish 4y ago
When there is a global surplus of clean energy then we can look to burn it on a distributed global casino. Until then there are countless better ways to use it. And yes, Crypto isn't the only wasteful use of energy, but it sure is the most obnoxious.

mirceal 4y ago

> I'm looking forward to burning less resources for just hashes. you do not understand or don't want to understand why those hashes are necessary. Are you okay with burning resources for running a bloated financial system or sponsoring "innovators" out of public money? Are you okay with the money you worked hard for to literally lose value due to inflation? Are you okay with a society where if we stop producing and consuming all but things we really need we will be rewarded with a financial crash?

Mehringotio 4y ago
- mirceal 4y ago
  - Mehringotio 4y ago
    - mirceal 4y ago
      - Mehringotio 4y ago