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So do you agree that letting Russia invade Ukraine is wrong? Like I said, the US was wrong to invade Vietnam and Iraq, and Russia is just as wrong to invade Uk

by mcv 5y ago

So do you agree that letting Russia invade Ukraine is wrong? Like I said, the US was wrong to invade Vietnam and Iraq, and Russia is just as wrong to invade Ukraine. > take a step back and ask "If I were Russia how would I view this?" As a big mistake. Russia is not getting anything out of this that's going to help Russia in any way. Russia has made itself the enemy of everybody around them. They've completely alienated all Ukrainians, nearly half of which used to be friendly towards Russia. > The idea is that if not expanding NATO stops Russia from invading Eastern European countries "Expanding NATO" is the wrong way to look at this. NATO doesn't expand itself, it accepts new members who apply to join NATO. NATO hasn't conquered anyone. Membership is entirely voluntary. NATO membership has shown itself to be the best protection against Russian aggression; Georgia and Ukraine have been invaded, but Estonia has not. Refusing membership to Estonia in a faint hope that Russia would not attack is a dangerous game to play with an entire country.

refurb 5y ago
What do you mean “letting Russia”? We didn’t let them do anything, they just did it. And maybe a better analogy is if your next door neighbor was blasting music at 2am. They’re wrong but you have a choice:1) call the cops and now you have a pissed of neighbor you get to live with forever or 2) go over and nicely ask them to turn it down. The neighbor is wrong and your right to call the cops but you may just screw yourself over rather than just nicely asking them to turn it down.
- fsloth 5y ago
  The war in Ukraine was not some neigborly dispute. It is a logical continuation of Russian imperialism which for centuries has used genocide and terror to suppress the masses. That's how Russia gained it's land area. Pure fucking violence. I have no idea while western colonialism has been judged harshly no-one in the west has spent much effort lamenting the fates of the people subjugated by Russia. This is not you neighbour blasting music. This is a narcist psycho terrorizing the neighbourhood by wanton burglary and murder. For years. The war in Ukraine is this psycho once again breaking in, shooting your grandmother, raping your son, stealing your washing machine and then telling everyone proudly how rightfull he was to do so. They went in with the full intent to end Ukrainian identity once and for all. Pure genocide. The last time they tried this was by manufacturing a famine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor What's the best analogue to think about this? While Germany was effectively de-nazified after ww2 Russia never de-stalinized or made amends for it's imperial stance. You really have to think of the Russian state you would think about Germany if it was run by third reich institutions.
  - refurb 5y ago
    It's odd that what you got from my analogy was "this is a neighborly dispute". The statement I was making was "everyone benefits when problems are resolved with minimal bloodshed". Do you disagree with that?
    - mcv 5y ago
      I completely agree that it's best to resolve problems with minimal bloodshed. But that ship has sailed. Putin has decided to invade a country and murder its citizens. If you want to minimize bloodshed, then he needs to be stopped.
      - refurb 5y ago
        As I pointed out in my other comment - Russia will get everything it wants. No NATO country will provide anything more than arms. Hell, Germany had to be pressed to provide anything remotely useful. Russia will grind it out, and once Ukraine realizes their victory will destroy the country and NATO won’t swoop in to save the day, they’ll compromise.
        mcv 5y ago
        > Russia will get everything it wants. Keep dreaming. There's no way Russia can possible get everything it wants. They'll have to compromise, and so will Ukraine.
    - fsloth 5y ago
      If "minimal bloodshed" means "the war must end in Ukrainian victory as fast as possible" then I agree. If Ukrainian victory is not as important as swift end to hostilities then I disagree. I believe Ukraine needs all the weapons and support so the war can end in a clear Ukrainian victory. My current view is pretty much aligned with PM of Estonia Mrs. Kallas: “I think what everybody has to understand is that peace is not an ultimate goal if it means that the aggression pays off” https://www.newstatesman.com/international-content/2022/05/europes-new-iron-lady-estonian-prime-minister-kaja-kallas https://www.newstatesman.com/international-content/2022/05/e...

by mcv 5y ago

refurb 5y ago

What do you mean “letting Russia”? We didn’t let them do anything, they just did it. And maybe a better analogy is if your next door neighbor was blasting music at 2am. They’re wrong but you have a choice:1) call the cops and now you have a pissed of neighbor you get to live with forever or 2) go over and nicely ask them to turn it down. The neighbor is wrong and your right to call the cops but you may just screw yourself over rather than just nicely asking them to turn it down.

fsloth 5y ago
The war in Ukraine was not some neigborly dispute. It is a logical continuation of Russian imperialism which for centuries has used genocide and terror to suppress the masses. That's how Russia gained it's land area. Pure fucking violence. I have no idea while western colonialism has been judged harshly no-one in the west has spent much effort lamenting the fates of the people subjugated by Russia. This is not you neighbour blasting music. This is a narcist psycho terrorizing the neighbourhood by wanton burglary and murder. For years. The war in Ukraine is this psycho once again breaking in, shooting your grandmother, raping your son, stealing your washing machine and then telling everyone proudly how rightfull he was to do so. They went in with the full intent to end Ukrainian identity once and for all. Pure genocide. The last time they tried this was by manufacturing a famine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor What's the best analogue to think about this? While Germany was effectively de-nazified after ww2 Russia never de-stalinized or made amends for it's imperial stance. You really have to think of the Russian state you would think about Germany if it was run by third reich institutions.
- refurb 5y ago
  It's odd that what you got from my analogy was "this is a neighborly dispute". The statement I was making was "everyone benefits when problems are resolved with minimal bloodshed". Do you disagree with that?
  - mcv 5y ago
    I completely agree that it's best to resolve problems with minimal bloodshed. But that ship has sailed. Putin has decided to invade a country and murder its citizens. If you want to minimize bloodshed, then he needs to be stopped.
    - refurb 5y ago
      As I pointed out in my other comment - Russia will get everything it wants. No NATO country will provide anything more than arms. Hell, Germany had to be pressed to provide anything remotely useful. Russia will grind it out, and once Ukraine realizes their victory will destroy the country and NATO won’t swoop in to save the day, they’ll compromise.
      - mcv 5y ago
        > Russia will get everything it wants. Keep dreaming. There's no way Russia can possible get everything it wants. They'll have to compromise, and so will Ukraine.
  - fsloth 5y ago
    If "minimal bloodshed" means "the war must end in Ukrainian victory as fast as possible" then I agree. If Ukrainian victory is not as important as swift end to hostilities then I disagree. I believe Ukraine needs all the weapons and support so the war can end in a clear Ukrainian victory. My current view is pretty much aligned with PM of Estonia Mrs. Kallas: “I think what everybody has to understand is that peace is not an ultimate goal if it means that the aggression pays off” https://www.newstatesman.com/international-content/2022/05/europes-new-iron-lady-estonian-prime-minister-kaja-kallas https://www.newstatesman.com/international-content/2022/05/e...