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> You have definitely not had 67 different governments I've studied English, not American. So government to me means means "the group of people who officially

> You have definitely not had 67 different governments I've studied English, not American. So government to me means means "the group of people who officially control a country", like in this BBC headline "Netanyahu out as new Israeli government approved". We definitely had 67 governments. Or 67 cabinets, if you prefer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prime_ministers_of_Italy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prime_ministers_of_Ita...

vel0city 4y ago
Its definitely a complicated and messy idea. Many Americans would essentially only consider a complete change of constitution as a "new government", meanwhile in certain language in parliamentary structures there is a common phrase of "creating a new government" when an election takes place. Neither idea is really wrong, they're just coming from different perspectives. If you're using the same kind of terminology, the federal US has had probably 117 governments, as this is the 117th Congress. However, we as Americans don't necessarily consider this a "new government", in that many of the institutions aren't radically different. We still have the Centers of Medicare and Medicaid Services, we still have the FBI, we still have the CIA, we still have the Social Security Administration, we still have the NTSB, we still have the FAA, etc. For Americans, the institutions are a massive part of the identity of "the Federal government", and unless all the institutions change its pretty much seen as a continuous government. Its definitely a messy turn of phrase which means different things in different contexts. Either way, while Italy has had 67 cabinets/governments, I imagine a lot of institutions have stayed the same. The ability for abuse is based in the institutions, the will to abuse is often with the politicians. So its not like a "new government" woudl somehow wipe clean all the record collections and ability for the State to act on it, you just have different people telling people to pull the levers a little different every few years.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  I know it can sound complicated, but I usually refer to what's written in our Constitution The Constitution establishes the Government of Italy as composed of the President of the Council (Prime Minister) and Ministers. The President of Italy appoints the Prime Minister and, on his proposal, the Ministers that form its cabinet. So it's the combination of PM (Mario Draghi right now) and Ministers, appointed by the head of State (that is now Sergio Mattarella) We had 67 of them in 75 years.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
School-Cotton 4y ago
> I've studied English, not American. Regardless, if debating in good faith you should respond to what people clearly mean, not to what you feel the words they’re using should mean in “correct” English. > Or 67 cabinets, if you prefer. Absolutely nobody is disputing this. The Wikipedia link is unnecessary.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  > Regardless, if debating in good faith you should respond to what people clearly mean, not to what you feel the words they’re using should mean in “correct” English. you're wrong: I never said I was using the correct English, I said that in the English that I have studied it is called a government. It's called government here too https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Italy#Executive_branch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Italy#Executive_... I'm not making up words. If in America it means something different it's irrelevant, we're not talking about America. > Absolutely nobody is disputing this. The Wikipedia link is unnecessary. Reptetita iuvant. Anyway, somebody was disputing this https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31353588 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31353588 You have definitely not had 67 different governments since 1946
  - School-Cotton 4y ago
    You (probably intentionally) cut off the exact part of the quote that entirely changes its meaning. You are engaging in bad-faith pedantry, and this discussion is now a waste of time.
    - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
      > You are engaging in bad-faith pedantry, and this discussion is now a waste of time. I cut the irrelevant part, I always assume people say things that represent "what they understood or meant". In that case the original post saying " you haven't had 67 governments in the way I mean" is completely useless, irrelevant, pedantic and in the end brought us to this conversation Nobody cares what "government" means to an american when the context is not America. Believe it or not, USA is only a tiny fraction of the World population and that tony fraction is in a good part not American too. What Americans think, believe or mean is irrelevant to 95.75% of the Planet.
rmbyrro 4y ago
Every country I'm aware of people also use government as a loose reference to the whole monster of state, branches (judiciary, executive, etc), constitution, laws, etc etc. Didn't know it wasn't used like that in Italy.
- School-Cotton 4y ago
  That’s untrue in many European countries.
  - rmbyrro 4y ago
    Certainly many European countries I'm not aware of how people refer to governments. Please read the comment more carefully. I'm saying about what I am personally aware, not a universal truth.
    - School-Cotton 4y ago
      I never said your comment was incorrect. I’m just providing further context.
mdp2021 4y ago
The term '«government»' was used by the parent poster, not by you, Sandy: you are the one with the onus of reading his language as was intended. Remember the Servers: "Strict in formulating the output, loose in interpreting the input".

vel0city 4y ago

Its definitely a complicated and messy idea. Many Americans would essentially only consider a complete change of constitution as a "new government", meanwhile in certain language in parliamentary structures there is a common phrase of "creating a new government" when an election takes place. Neither idea is really wrong, they're just coming from different perspectives. If you're using the same kind of terminology, the federal US has had probably 117 governments, as this is the 117th Congress. However, we as Americans don't necessarily consider this a "new government", in that many of the institutions aren't radically different. We still have the Centers of Medicare and Medicaid Services, we still have the FBI, we still have the CIA, we still have the Social Security Administration, we still have the NTSB, we still have the FAA, etc. For Americans, the institutions are a massive part of the identity of "the Federal government", and unless all the institutions change its pretty much seen as a continuous government. Its definitely a messy turn of phrase which means different things in different contexts. Either way, while Italy has had 67 cabinets/governments, I imagine a lot of institutions have stayed the same. The ability for abuse is based in the institutions, the will to abuse is often with the politicians. So its not like a "new government" woudl somehow wipe clean all the record collections and ability for the State to act on it, you just have different people telling people to pull the levers a little different every few years.

peoplefromibiza 4y ago
I know it can sound complicated, but I usually refer to what's written in our Constitution The Constitution establishes the Government of Italy as composed of the President of the Council (Prime Minister) and Ministers. The President of Italy appoints the Prime Minister and, on his proposal, the Ministers that form its cabinet. So it's the combination of PM (Mario Draghi right now) and Ministers, appointed by the head of State (that is now Sergio Mattarella) We had 67 of them in 75 years.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

School-Cotton 4y ago

> I've studied English, not American. Regardless, if debating in good faith you should respond to what people clearly mean, not to what you feel the words they’re using should mean in “correct” English. > Or 67 cabinets, if you prefer. Absolutely nobody is disputing this. The Wikipedia link is unnecessary.

peoplefromibiza 4y ago
> Regardless, if debating in good faith you should respond to what people clearly mean, not to what you feel the words they’re using should mean in “correct” English. you're wrong: I never said I was using the correct English, I said that in the English that I have studied it is called a government. It's called government here too https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Italy#Executive_branch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Italy#Executive_... I'm not making up words. If in America it means something different it's irrelevant, we're not talking about America. > Absolutely nobody is disputing this. The Wikipedia link is unnecessary. Reptetita iuvant. Anyway, somebody was disputing this https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31353588 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31353588 You have definitely not had 67 different governments since 1946
- School-Cotton 4y ago
  You (probably intentionally) cut off the exact part of the quote that entirely changes its meaning. You are engaging in bad-faith pedantry, and this discussion is now a waste of time.
  - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
    > You are engaging in bad-faith pedantry, and this discussion is now a waste of time. I cut the irrelevant part, I always assume people say things that represent "what they understood or meant". In that case the original post saying " you haven't had 67 governments in the way I mean" is completely useless, irrelevant, pedantic and in the end brought us to this conversation Nobody cares what "government" means to an american when the context is not America. Believe it or not, USA is only a tiny fraction of the World population and that tony fraction is in a good part not American too. What Americans think, believe or mean is irrelevant to 95.75% of the Planet.

rmbyrro 4y ago

Every country I'm aware of people also use government as a loose reference to the whole monster of state, branches (judiciary, executive, etc), constitution, laws, etc etc. Didn't know it wasn't used like that in Italy.

School-Cotton 4y ago
That’s untrue in many European countries.
- rmbyrro 4y ago
  Certainly many European countries I'm not aware of how people refer to governments. Please read the comment more carefully. I'm saying about what I am personally aware, not a universal truth.
  - School-Cotton 4y ago
    I never said your comment was incorrect. I’m just providing further context.

mdp2021 4y ago

The term '«government»' was used by the parent poster, not by you, Sandy: you are the one with the onus of reading his language as was intended. Remember the Servers: "Strict in formulating the output, loose in interpreting the input".