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Can you give some EU specific examples that can be considered representative and not huge outliers? Shit happens everywhere but where am I in Europe if anythin

by stef25 4y ago

Can you give some EU specific examples that can be considered representative and not huge outliers? Shit happens everywhere but where am I in Europe if anything there's a lack of law enforcement in the sense that prison terms always seem to be considered too low, people with sentences under X months don't actually go to jail because of overcrowding, police is constantly frustrated that people they pick off the street are immediately released again by judges etc.

BlargMcLarg 4y ago
The starting comment gave you an example to start off with. The Netherlands, Toeslagenaffaire. You can't go telling "yeah we really care about innocent people" when you let an algorithm wreak havoc producing false positives and then take ages to fix it while the families are still dealing with the aftermath. That's the opposite, caring for true positives despite the potential false positives produced. I'd also ask you to take a few trips down some ideologies. If you believe "EU is so nice it can do no wrong", you'll probably be cured of it soon when you realize extremists are spread all around the world, and have no qualms exercising their sense of justice even if it hurts innocent people.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  > Toeslagenaffaire it was about fraud. And it happened in the Netherlands, which aren't exactly the cleanest of the countries (just check their ties with drug cartels money [1]), so it's Netherlanders that should be worried, not EU citizens. It happens all the time, I don't know anymore how many wrongful tax bills I have received over the past 30 years, you just show the documents that prove you're in the right (if you are) and that's about it. We pay accountants for a reason. Lawyers are still free in my country if you can't afford one, event though it's very hard go to prison for tax evasion, at least not in all the European countries I know, even less likely for undue child benefits. [1] Money laundering is a growing problem in the Netherlands, with estimates suggesting that around €16 billion in illegal funds is laundered there every year — money derived from a range of criminal activities, including drug trafficking, sexual exploitation and extortion
  - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
    You're being pedantic and apologist for very little reason. There are still dozens of families who have yet to be reimbursed for this mistake, let alone the damage which was caused in the aftermath. Instead, we have a bunch of people still arguing what to do about the situation, all which are paid in tax money that could've been used to solve the issue already. It's not about them being evil. It's about them feeling justified to use the algorithm in the way it was used, which then lead to pretty dire consequences for many families, followed by a lack of action and a general lazy attitude towards the entire situation. Along with a general lack of foresight when they implemented it. This is a very clear example of what happens when you optimize for true positives at the cost of false positives. You can argue the costs and benefits, but you can't argue "people don't want to harm innocents" when they select to do so in a scenario where it very clear does harm innocents. "Caring about not harming innocents" gets dropped the moment it feels inconvenient. That's something people need to be aware of instead of living in their idealist dream world.
    - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
      > There are still dozens of families who have yet to be reimbursed for this mistake that has nothing to do with the matter at hand, it's completely OT and, frankly, who cares? It is not EU fault, it's Netherlands's fault. EU doesn't control Netherlands.
      - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
        Again, you're being pedantic in an attempt to dismiss people. People could interpret the comment in question as "name examples in Europe", as if commenter was trying to imply "European countries aren't as crazy and totalitarian as the US / the remainder of the world". Several commenters gave examples close to home. But somehow the EU, as in European Union, will be the exception, and we can't be skeptical of that. Get real.
        peoplefromibiza 4y ago
        > Again, you're being pedantic in an attempt to dismiss people. No, I'm being correct. Netherland problems that are not caused by EU regulations, are not EU problems. Deal with that. > But somehow the EU, as in European Union, will be the exception, and we can't be skeptical of that. Fale premise. I never said that EU is gonna be an exception, just that this particular problem happens everywhere, tax fraud are probably the most common case of fraud World wide. So implying that's proof of some potential problem inside a new EU regulation that has nothing to do with tax fraud is naive at best, but let's get real, you're being not naive, you're simply being biased.
Freak_NL 4y ago
Both examples are (were) recent and in the EU. Edit: sorry, I thought this was in reply to my sibling comment. See the two examples mentioned there.
tomp 4y ago
Julian Assange? Cooperated corruption of multiple European countries, governments, prosecutors & supernational bodies (e.g. Interpol).
haunter 4y ago
British Post Office scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandal

by stef25 4y ago

BlargMcLarg 4y ago

The starting comment gave you an example to start off with. The Netherlands, Toeslagenaffaire. You can't go telling "yeah we really care about innocent people" when you let an algorithm wreak havoc producing false positives and then take ages to fix it while the families are still dealing with the aftermath. That's the opposite, caring for true positives despite the potential false positives produced. I'd also ask you to take a few trips down some ideologies. If you believe "EU is so nice it can do no wrong", you'll probably be cured of it soon when you realize extremists are spread all around the world, and have no qualms exercising their sense of justice even if it hurts innocent people.

peoplefromibiza 4y ago
> Toeslagenaffaire it was about fraud. And it happened in the Netherlands, which aren't exactly the cleanest of the countries (just check their ties with drug cartels money [1]), so it's Netherlanders that should be worried, not EU citizens. It happens all the time, I don't know anymore how many wrongful tax bills I have received over the past 30 years, you just show the documents that prove you're in the right (if you are) and that's about it. We pay accountants for a reason. Lawyers are still free in my country if you can't afford one, event though it's very hard go to prison for tax evasion, at least not in all the European countries I know, even less likely for undue child benefits. [1] Money laundering is a growing problem in the Netherlands, with estimates suggesting that around €16 billion in illegal funds is laundered there every year — money derived from a range of criminal activities, including drug trafficking, sexual exploitation and extortion
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  You're being pedantic and apologist for very little reason. There are still dozens of families who have yet to be reimbursed for this mistake, let alone the damage which was caused in the aftermath. Instead, we have a bunch of people still arguing what to do about the situation, all which are paid in tax money that could've been used to solve the issue already. It's not about them being evil. It's about them feeling justified to use the algorithm in the way it was used, which then lead to pretty dire consequences for many families, followed by a lack of action and a general lazy attitude towards the entire situation. Along with a general lack of foresight when they implemented it. This is a very clear example of what happens when you optimize for true positives at the cost of false positives. You can argue the costs and benefits, but you can't argue "people don't want to harm innocents" when they select to do so in a scenario where it very clear does harm innocents. "Caring about not harming innocents" gets dropped the moment it feels inconvenient. That's something people need to be aware of instead of living in their idealist dream world.
  - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
    > There are still dozens of families who have yet to be reimbursed for this mistake that has nothing to do with the matter at hand, it's completely OT and, frankly, who cares? It is not EU fault, it's Netherlands's fault. EU doesn't control Netherlands.
    - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
      Again, you're being pedantic in an attempt to dismiss people. People could interpret the comment in question as "name examples in Europe", as if commenter was trying to imply "European countries aren't as crazy and totalitarian as the US / the remainder of the world". Several commenters gave examples close to home. But somehow the EU, as in European Union, will be the exception, and we can't be skeptical of that. Get real.
      - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
        > Again, you're being pedantic in an attempt to dismiss people. No, I'm being correct. Netherland problems that are not caused by EU regulations, are not EU problems. Deal with that. > But somehow the EU, as in European Union, will be the exception, and we can't be skeptical of that. Fale premise. I never said that EU is gonna be an exception, just that this particular problem happens everywhere, tax fraud are probably the most common case of fraud World wide. So implying that's proof of some potential problem inside a new EU regulation that has nothing to do with tax fraud is naive at best, but let's get real, you're being not naive, you're simply being biased.

Freak_NL 4y ago

Both examples are (were) recent and in the EU. Edit: sorry, I thought this was in reply to my sibling comment. See the two examples mentioned there.

tomp 4y ago

Julian Assange? Cooperated corruption of multiple European countries, governments, prosecutors & supernational bodies (e.g. Interpol).

haunter 4y ago

British Post Office scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandal