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> cyberpunk’s nihilistic dystopian vision has run out of steam Cyberpunk is NOT advocating for dystopia, it's WARNING US about it.

_Microft 4y ago
Elon Musk has entered the chat.
causi 4y ago
That's exactly the type of savior complex mixed with breathtaking miscategorization you get from solarpunk advocates. They want a cool name and an aesthetic to go along with a socio-political movement so they pretend other artistic movements and styles are also some type of socio-political movement. Imagine seriously believing that steampunk enthusiasts see steampunk as a way to remake the world. my personal favourite solarpunk inspired designs, was Vincent Callebaut Architectures’ proposal for the new roof of the Notre-Dame Cathedral after the fire Imagine being so fucking smug you want to radically alter the reconstruction of a priceless historical building to make a political statement.
- kingkawn 4y ago
  That redesign looks pretty cool tbh
  - causi 4y ago
    Sure does. They should go build it. Somewhere other than on top of the eight hundred and sixty year old cathedral.
    - tremon 4y ago
      Why? The original roof is lost, and while we can painstaking recreate it, it still won't be the same roof. So why can't we upgrade such a historical landmark to be a beacon of the future?
      - causi 4y ago
        Is that a serious question? The same reason we don't add dairy cows to cave drawings or put shiplap on the great wall of China or conduct civil war reenactments with predator drones . It's a historical landmark.
        kingkawn 4y ago
        Na, the part that’s left is a historical landmark. The huge gaping hole in the roof is whatever we like it to be.
  - cupofpython 4y ago
    okay but why not just take down the entire thing and make something even cooler
    - kingkawn 4y ago
      Because that would be destroying history. Filling in a fire-made gap with something new is no more intrusive to the building than a restoration that bears all the hallmarks of this era anyway.
      - cupofpython 4y ago
        It is no more a destruction of history than to intentionally make it different than it was. It isnt ideal to need to repair it, but the more we can preserve the effect on our senses (sight) of the original the better. If you fundamentally alter the way it looks, it is no longer a historical reference. It is something new, albeit with an interesting history / story. If you redesign it, you should also rename it. When something is repaired to the best of our ability, the future can look back on it and understand the context that we were trying to make it as it was - and all the hallmarks of this era will be identifiable as the minimum amount. If we redesign it, we make it more about us and our current time. the future will likely be able to redesign it better, so it's just going to look like an ugly patch that is way too extra. If we prefer to make the building about us and our current time, we should just destroy the entire thing and rebuild it from scratch as a full redesign.
        kingkawn 4y ago
        The idea that we can make preservation repairs will be exposed as a fallacy a few decades after we've tried, when it becomes clear that our objectivity at the time was just regular hidebound contemporary trend following. Might as well embrace it and make something cool.
- robonerd 4y ago
  > artistic movements and styles are also some type of socio-political movement Cyberpunk was social and political commentary from the start. Solarpunk is too, but feels less genuine. It feels like a corporate feel-good aesthetic designed for pharmaceutical television commercials hocking anti-depressants. I've never seen much in the way of social or political commentary from steampunk. Steampunk is extremely kitsch. It looks cool, but there's not much more to it than looking cool and invoking pseudo-nostalgia for the 19th century. At best you get some weak commentary about 19th century colonialism and industrialization chewing people up, but mostly this genre is about glorifying the Victorian/Industrial style.
  - LewisMumford 4y ago
    To me it feels absolutely anti corporate, even if that twee cartoon was a from a corporate ad. Solarpunk is about conceptualising new ways to invent the future. It's not kitsch like steampunk. It seems like the early days of a movement that could become extremely influential, and I think pushing that idea forward could lead to positive things in the future. Let's reserve our cynicism for things that need it and push these ideas as far as they can go.
- goodpoint 4y ago
  > pretend other artistic movements and styles are also some type of socio-political movement Pretend? It's literally in the first sentence of the wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberpunk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberpunk "combination of lowlife and high tech" ... juxtaposed with societal collapse or decay Citation: Thomas Michaud, "Science fiction and politics: Cyberpunk science fiction as political philosophy" It does not get more political than that.
- LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
  Have you seen the reference you are talking about? https://www.dezeen.com/2019/05/09/notre-dame-roof-vincent-callebaut-energy-food-farm/ https://www.dezeen.com/2019/05/09/notre-dame-roof-vincent-ca... I see nothing smug there, just a smart and appropriate upgrade. It fits seamlessly onto the rest of the structure, while the former roof was just a boring affair.
  - causi 4y ago
    Restoring a historical object and making deliberate, unnecessary alterations is perverse. If the bottom half of the Mona Lisa was destroyed in a fire would you find it acceptable for the conservator to paint her in a blazer?
    - LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
      I don't care about Mona Lisa. Like I also don't care about many things other people seem to care about. They could tear down Cologne Cathedral and I'd shrug. Back to Paris, I think the Eiffel Tower and Centre national d'art et de culture Georges-Pompidou is more relevant to me, than a place built to worship something which I'm considering a cargo cult. But that's just me.
- LewisMumford 4y ago
  It was literally a speculative design. These things happen a lot in architecture. They lay the way for future projects even if they themselves will never be built. They are rebuilding the roof exactly as it was...
tomc1985 4y ago
Yeah this article seems to have a really poor understanding of 'cyberpunk' and it's motivations. He also calls an underground, generally unpopular aesthetic "tired". Cue my eyes rolling to the back of my head so hard they snap connecting nerves...
- LewisMumford 4y ago
  Underground and generally unpopular aesthetic? Really? Biggest sci-fi movie of the 80s? Blade Runner. Biggest sci-fi movie of the 90s? The Matrix. And these aren't just the biggest sci-fi movies, they were huge cultural phenomena when they came out. They definitely transcended the genre. Following those kinds of things the cyberpunk aesthetic became so ingrained in reality we barely even see it anymore. Screens of adverts plaster every new city centre. Even the term 'cyberspace' and other internet slang literally came from cyberpunk novels. All of that is mentioned in the cyberpunk articles. But the point is it's outdated and we need to work beyond it and create something new which can have a similar influence on the future.
  - tomc1985 4y ago
    They were practically the only cyberpunk movies with any significant impact. And what have we had over all these years on the gaming front? CP2077? Deus Ex? Shadowrun? And a handful of indie games? Sure there were a bunch... in the 90s. So... one big cyberpunk movie every 10 years? Games every few? Marvel, fantasy, all that other pop culture garbage sees new movies on a seemingly monthly cadence. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely adore cyberpunk as a genre and warning and seethe at watching the optimistic yuppies drag 'punk' through the mud with their 'rebellion against negativity' garbage. But cyberpunk is not a popular genre.
    - LewisMumford 4y ago
      The fact that the two most inflential sci fi movies of all time are both cyberpunk tells you all you need to know. Even the fact they decided to make a modern CP2077, and how hyped it was, shows how much cultural force the genre still has. Neuromancer and Snow Crash are two of the best selling SF books of all time. Facebook literally named their new company Meta so they could push the 'metaverse' which was coined in Snow Crash... The list is endless honestly. Saying it's not as popular as Marvel means basically nothing. Superheroes are like modern day capitalist myths at this point. The whole purpose of those movies is to sell.
LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
Depends on how you look at it. It could also be seen as desensitization, to soften you up for acceptance of "there is no alternative" via shock doctrine. Furthermore, also depending on how and where you look at it, we've long overtaken the warnings of 1984, Brave New World, Fahrenheit 451 and following, at least partially.
LewisMumford 4y ago
It didn't say anything about advocating. It was a vision of the future that cam true in a lot of senses. But now it's run out of steam. It seems dated. New visions of the future are necessary, and solarpunk is one of them. That's the point.

_Microft 4y ago

Elon Musk has entered the chat.

causi 4y ago

That's exactly the type of savior complex mixed with breathtaking miscategorization you get from solarpunk advocates. They want a cool name and an aesthetic to go along with a socio-political movement so they pretend other artistic movements and styles are also some type of socio-political movement. Imagine seriously believing that steampunk enthusiasts see steampunk as a way to remake the world. my personal favourite solarpunk inspired designs, was Vincent Callebaut Architectures’ proposal for the new roof of the Notre-Dame Cathedral after the fire Imagine being so fucking smug you want to radically alter the reconstruction of a priceless historical building to make a political statement.

kingkawn 4y ago
That redesign looks pretty cool tbh
- causi 4y ago
  Sure does. They should go build it. Somewhere other than on top of the eight hundred and sixty year old cathedral.
  - tremon 4y ago
    Why? The original roof is lost, and while we can painstaking recreate it, it still won't be the same roof. So why can't we upgrade such a historical landmark to be a beacon of the future?
    - causi 4y ago
      Is that a serious question? The same reason we don't add dairy cows to cave drawings or put shiplap on the great wall of China or conduct civil war reenactments with predator drones . It's a historical landmark.
      - kingkawn 4y ago
        Na, the part that’s left is a historical landmark. The huge gaping hole in the roof is whatever we like it to be.
- cupofpython 4y ago
  okay but why not just take down the entire thing and make something even cooler
  - kingkawn 4y ago
    Because that would be destroying history. Filling in a fire-made gap with something new is no more intrusive to the building than a restoration that bears all the hallmarks of this era anyway.
    - cupofpython 4y ago
      It is no more a destruction of history than to intentionally make it different than it was. It isnt ideal to need to repair it, but the more we can preserve the effect on our senses (sight) of the original the better. If you fundamentally alter the way it looks, it is no longer a historical reference. It is something new, albeit with an interesting history / story. If you redesign it, you should also rename it. When something is repaired to the best of our ability, the future can look back on it and understand the context that we were trying to make it as it was - and all the hallmarks of this era will be identifiable as the minimum amount. If we redesign it, we make it more about us and our current time. the future will likely be able to redesign it better, so it's just going to look like an ugly patch that is way too extra. If we prefer to make the building about us and our current time, we should just destroy the entire thing and rebuild it from scratch as a full redesign.
      - kingkawn 4y ago
        The idea that we can make preservation repairs will be exposed as a fallacy a few decades after we've tried, when it becomes clear that our objectivity at the time was just regular hidebound contemporary trend following. Might as well embrace it and make something cool.
robonerd 4y ago
> artistic movements and styles are also some type of socio-political movement Cyberpunk was social and political commentary from the start. Solarpunk is too, but feels less genuine. It feels like a corporate feel-good aesthetic designed for pharmaceutical television commercials hocking anti-depressants. I've never seen much in the way of social or political commentary from steampunk. Steampunk is extremely kitsch. It looks cool, but there's not much more to it than looking cool and invoking pseudo-nostalgia for the 19th century. At best you get some weak commentary about 19th century colonialism and industrialization chewing people up, but mostly this genre is about glorifying the Victorian/Industrial style.
- LewisMumford 4y ago
  To me it feels absolutely anti corporate, even if that twee cartoon was a from a corporate ad. Solarpunk is about conceptualising new ways to invent the future. It's not kitsch like steampunk. It seems like the early days of a movement that could become extremely influential, and I think pushing that idea forward could lead to positive things in the future. Let's reserve our cynicism for things that need it and push these ideas as far as they can go.
goodpoint 4y ago
> pretend other artistic movements and styles are also some type of socio-political movement Pretend? It's literally in the first sentence of the wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberpunk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberpunk "combination of lowlife and high tech" ... juxtaposed with societal collapse or decay Citation: Thomas Michaud, "Science fiction and politics: Cyberpunk science fiction as political philosophy" It does not get more political than that.
LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
Have you seen the reference you are talking about? https://www.dezeen.com/2019/05/09/notre-dame-roof-vincent-callebaut-energy-food-farm/ https://www.dezeen.com/2019/05/09/notre-dame-roof-vincent-ca... I see nothing smug there, just a smart and appropriate upgrade. It fits seamlessly onto the rest of the structure, while the former roof was just a boring affair.
- causi 4y ago
  Restoring a historical object and making deliberate, unnecessary alterations is perverse. If the bottom half of the Mona Lisa was destroyed in a fire would you find it acceptable for the conservator to paint her in a blazer?
  - LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
    I don't care about Mona Lisa. Like I also don't care about many things other people seem to care about. They could tear down Cologne Cathedral and I'd shrug. Back to Paris, I think the Eiffel Tower and Centre national d'art et de culture Georges-Pompidou is more relevant to me, than a place built to worship something which I'm considering a cargo cult. But that's just me.
LewisMumford 4y ago
It was literally a speculative design. These things happen a lot in architecture. They lay the way for future projects even if they themselves will never be built. They are rebuilding the roof exactly as it was...

tomc1985 4y ago

Yeah this article seems to have a really poor understanding of 'cyberpunk' and it's motivations. He also calls an underground, generally unpopular aesthetic "tired". Cue my eyes rolling to the back of my head so hard they snap connecting nerves...

LewisMumford 4y ago
Underground and generally unpopular aesthetic? Really? Biggest sci-fi movie of the 80s? Blade Runner. Biggest sci-fi movie of the 90s? The Matrix. And these aren't just the biggest sci-fi movies, they were huge cultural phenomena when they came out. They definitely transcended the genre. Following those kinds of things the cyberpunk aesthetic became so ingrained in reality we barely even see it anymore. Screens of adverts plaster every new city centre. Even the term 'cyberspace' and other internet slang literally came from cyberpunk novels. All of that is mentioned in the cyberpunk articles. But the point is it's outdated and we need to work beyond it and create something new which can have a similar influence on the future.
- tomc1985 4y ago
  They were practically the only cyberpunk movies with any significant impact. And what have we had over all these years on the gaming front? CP2077? Deus Ex? Shadowrun? And a handful of indie games? Sure there were a bunch... in the 90s. So... one big cyberpunk movie every 10 years? Games every few? Marvel, fantasy, all that other pop culture garbage sees new movies on a seemingly monthly cadence. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely adore cyberpunk as a genre and warning and seethe at watching the optimistic yuppies drag 'punk' through the mud with their 'rebellion against negativity' garbage. But cyberpunk is not a popular genre.
  - LewisMumford 4y ago
    The fact that the two most inflential sci fi movies of all time are both cyberpunk tells you all you need to know. Even the fact they decided to make a modern CP2077, and how hyped it was, shows how much cultural force the genre still has. Neuromancer and Snow Crash are two of the best selling SF books of all time. Facebook literally named their new company Meta so they could push the 'metaverse' which was coined in Snow Crash... The list is endless honestly. Saying it's not as popular as Marvel means basically nothing. Superheroes are like modern day capitalist myths at this point. The whole purpose of those movies is to sell.

LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago

Depends on how you look at it. It could also be seen as desensitization, to soften you up for acceptance of "there is no alternative" via shock doctrine. Furthermore, also depending on how and where you look at it, we've long overtaken the warnings of 1984, Brave New World, Fahrenheit 451 and following, at least partially.

LewisMumford 4y ago

It didn't say anything about advocating. It was a vision of the future that cam true in a lot of senses. But now it's run out of steam. It seems dated. New visions of the future are necessary, and solarpunk is one of them. That's the point.