4 ms·

> Because Ukraine is on the doorstep of Europe, that's why Europeans care more, and by proxy the US. But only since Russia started invading. When news about Uk

by herbst 4y ago

> Because Ukraine is on the doorstep of Europe, that's why Europeans care more, and by proxy the US. But only since Russia started invading. When news about Ukraine were still all about their corrupt government, breaking human rights, their horrible prisons and more like that nobody thought Ukraine to to 'close' or anything. It's obvious the whole perception of Ukraine just suddenly changed because Russia is the bad guy.

SyzygistSix 4y ago
True. Before there was little common ground but now the populations of countries like the US, Baltics, and Poland have significant common ground and feel much closer to the Ukrainian people because of the common value of freedom and sovereignty, both of which are held very dear. There is nothing strange or hypocritical about that.
- herbst 4y ago
  It's kinda hypocritical as Ukraine is standing for much but not any of these values in recent history https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Ukraine#Situation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Ukraine#Situ... but I totally see your point.
emptysongglass 4y ago
That isn't true. Many of us worked with Ukrainians before the war, especially in the software industry, such as myself. There was no sudden perceptual change. I observed the fear and anxiety my Ukrainian coworkers experienced directly. They are European and they did not deserve this invasion and as far as I'm concerned deserve all the help and compassion the rest of us can offer.
- herbst 4y ago
  I am not denying any of this. I only have a minimal idea of how the situation is or was in the Ukraine, and don't claim to know. I hope the best for all of them. I just struggle with the idea of sending weapons to a country that has a well recorded near history of human right violations. In my opinion the public voice is less about the actual people but about political fears.
- denton-scratch 4y ago
  > They are European "European" is a rather loose term. When I was a kid, Europe stopped at the border with East Germany. Later, a bunch of former soviet countries became "european" countries. Then Ukraine. For a while, Russia was acclaimed as a european country (it's still often described that way in the UK press). Call me an old fogey, but I'm still doubtful that the former East Germany is really european yet. Being "european" is a question of culture, not of political alliances and borders.
  - emptysongglass 4y ago
    Yes, and I say Ukrainians are European in culture and an inspiration to other Europeans in their bravery. Danes recently celebrated the liberation of their country from Nazis. Thousands of us packed the city square to listen to Zelensky speak to our cultural memory of oppression at the hands of invaders. My Ukrainian coworkers were easy to work with, easy to communicate with, hardworking and an equal to any of us in ability.
    - denton-scratch 4y ago
      Talk of bravery and historic wrongs always makes me feel uncomfortable. I've never made the acquaintance of a Ukrainian; I'm sure they're lovely (and familiar). I have worked with Russians; they were also charming (and familiar).
      - emptysongglass 4y ago
        > Talk of bravery and historic wrongs always makes me feel uncomfortable. I'll ask you to clarify because it sounds, to me, like you are saying something I hope you are not. > I've never made the acquaintance of a Ukrainian; I'm sure they're lovely (and familiar). I have worked with Russians; they were also charming (and familiar). I'd be more than happy to embrace Russians living, abiding and supporting their nation with their labor as sisters and brothers when their country stops assaulting sovereign nations. Unfortunately, there is no one else who can stop the invasion but its own people.
doikor 4y ago
> But only since Russia started invading. When news about Ukraine were still all about their corrupt government, breaking human rights, their horrible prisons and more like that nobody thought Ukraine to to 'close' or anything. But you do realize that a large part of these problems stem from the corruption and the main source of that in Ukraine was (is?) ungodly amounts of money coming in from Putins regime to bribe the shit out of everyone (mainly in the form of selling gas/oil to some local oligarch way under market price and which they then sell at market price). This whole conflict started when the Ukraine people decided to say fuck this and kicked out Putins friend out from power and Russia retaliated by taking over Crimea and give money/weapons to the seperatist in Donetsk and Luhansk.

by herbst 4y ago

SyzygistSix 4y ago

True. Before there was little common ground but now the populations of countries like the US, Baltics, and Poland have significant common ground and feel much closer to the Ukrainian people because of the common value of freedom and sovereignty, both of which are held very dear. There is nothing strange or hypocritical about that.

herbst 4y ago
It's kinda hypocritical as Ukraine is standing for much but not any of these values in recent history https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Ukraine#Situation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Ukraine#Situ... but I totally see your point.

emptysongglass 4y ago

That isn't true. Many of us worked with Ukrainians before the war, especially in the software industry, such as myself. There was no sudden perceptual change. I observed the fear and anxiety my Ukrainian coworkers experienced directly. They are European and they did not deserve this invasion and as far as I'm concerned deserve all the help and compassion the rest of us can offer.

herbst 4y ago
I am not denying any of this. I only have a minimal idea of how the situation is or was in the Ukraine, and don't claim to know. I hope the best for all of them. I just struggle with the idea of sending weapons to a country that has a well recorded near history of human right violations. In my opinion the public voice is less about the actual people but about political fears.
denton-scratch 4y ago
> They are European "European" is a rather loose term. When I was a kid, Europe stopped at the border with East Germany. Later, a bunch of former soviet countries became "european" countries. Then Ukraine. For a while, Russia was acclaimed as a european country (it's still often described that way in the UK press). Call me an old fogey, but I'm still doubtful that the former East Germany is really european yet. Being "european" is a question of culture, not of political alliances and borders.
- emptysongglass 4y ago
  Yes, and I say Ukrainians are European in culture and an inspiration to other Europeans in their bravery. Danes recently celebrated the liberation of their country from Nazis. Thousands of us packed the city square to listen to Zelensky speak to our cultural memory of oppression at the hands of invaders. My Ukrainian coworkers were easy to work with, easy to communicate with, hardworking and an equal to any of us in ability.
  - denton-scratch 4y ago
    Talk of bravery and historic wrongs always makes me feel uncomfortable. I've never made the acquaintance of a Ukrainian; I'm sure they're lovely (and familiar). I have worked with Russians; they were also charming (and familiar).
    - emptysongglass 4y ago
      > Talk of bravery and historic wrongs always makes me feel uncomfortable. I'll ask you to clarify because it sounds, to me, like you are saying something I hope you are not. > I've never made the acquaintance of a Ukrainian; I'm sure they're lovely (and familiar). I have worked with Russians; they were also charming (and familiar). I'd be more than happy to embrace Russians living, abiding and supporting their nation with their labor as sisters and brothers when their country stops assaulting sovereign nations. Unfortunately, there is no one else who can stop the invasion but its own people.

doikor 4y ago

> But only since Russia started invading. When news about Ukraine were still all about their corrupt government, breaking human rights, their horrible prisons and more like that nobody thought Ukraine to to 'close' or anything. But you do realize that a large part of these problems stem from the corruption and the main source of that in Ukraine was (is?) ungodly amounts of money coming in from Putins regime to bribe the shit out of everyone (mainly in the form of selling gas/oil to some local oligarch way under market price and which they then sell at market price). This whole conflict started when the Ukraine people decided to say fuck this and kicked out Putins friend out from power and Russia retaliated by taking over Crimea and give money/weapons to the seperatist in Donetsk and Luhansk.