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thank you. i am not sympathizing with anyone for that matter. i am pointing out what i observe.... you know when america invaded iraq for "WMDs" and they turn

thank you. i am not sympathizing with anyone for that matter. i am pointing out what i observe.... you know when america invaded iraq for "WMDs" and they turned out to be nothing and literally nothing happened? "strong anger" does not equate to waging a war against america like its being done against russia. let me ask you, you and me are neither americans nor russians. did the world care when america invaded afghanistan, iraq, libya, syria and razed those nations to the ground? but god forbid russia does the same to ukraine. then its a matter of world peace. last i knew in afghanistan there were many countries whose soldiers fought along americans so all those countries were equally complicit in the crime against citizens of those nations. why?

phatfish 4y ago
Do you really need to ask why? Because Ukraine is on the doorstep of Europe, that's why Europeans care more, and by proxy the US. As for Iraq, yes people did care, there were large protests in London and Tony Blair is still hated by the general public in the UK. I don't know the real feeling in the US. The UK government didn't listen because Tony wanted his ego boost on the world stage. The only NATO backed war of that era which had any grounds was in Afghanistan, Bin Laden attacked the US, and the US had to do something. It was executed terribly in the beginning (from what I understand the Afghans wanted to help get rid of Bin Laden) but in the end there was justification. Iraq was illegal and only gave Russia cover for its actions against it's neighbours rich up until the Ukraine invasion.
- herbst 4y ago
  > Because Ukraine is on the doorstep of Europe, that's why Europeans care more, and by proxy the US. But only since Russia started invading. When news about Ukraine were still all about their corrupt government, breaking human rights, their horrible prisons and more like that nobody thought Ukraine to to 'close' or anything. It's obvious the whole perception of Ukraine just suddenly changed because Russia is the bad guy.
  - SyzygistSix 4y ago
    True. Before there was little common ground but now the populations of countries like the US, Baltics, and Poland have significant common ground and feel much closer to the Ukrainian people because of the common value of freedom and sovereignty, both of which are held very dear. There is nothing strange or hypocritical about that.
    - herbst 4y ago
      It's kinda hypocritical as Ukraine is standing for much but not any of these values in recent history https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Ukraine#Situation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Ukraine#Situ... but I totally see your point.
  - emptysongglass 4y ago
    That isn't true. Many of us worked with Ukrainians before the war, especially in the software industry, such as myself. There was no sudden perceptual change. I observed the fear and anxiety my Ukrainian coworkers experienced directly. They are European and they did not deserve this invasion and as far as I'm concerned deserve all the help and compassion the rest of us can offer.
    - herbst 4y ago
      I am not denying any of this. I only have a minimal idea of how the situation is or was in the Ukraine, and don't claim to know. I hope the best for all of them. I just struggle with the idea of sending weapons to a country that has a well recorded near history of human right violations. In my opinion the public voice is less about the actual people but about political fears.
    - denton-scratch 4y ago
      > They are European "European" is a rather loose term. When I was a kid, Europe stopped at the border with East Germany. Later, a bunch of former soviet countries became "european" countries. Then Ukraine. For a while, Russia was acclaimed as a european country (it's still often described that way in the UK press). Call me an old fogey, but I'm still doubtful that the former East Germany is really european yet. Being "european" is a question of culture, not of political alliances and borders.
- JKCalhoun 4y ago
  > I don't know the real feeling in the US. About half of us called bullshit the instant "WMDs" were paraded as the reason to go to war. And I think the other half have, over time, come to see the whole operation as a regretful waste of time, money, and lives. So, no, I don't think there are any fans of the U.S. invasion of Iraq still around. Some of us are still incensed by the lies that were trotted out though.
  - 2Gkashmiri 4y ago
    >Some of us are still incensed by the lies that were trotted out though. this is the only point i'm trying to make. suppose tomorrow biden comes up and wants to invade iran for example. will american public lap it up like they have for the last so many decades, thats there but what about the rest of the world community? how many will arm IRAN against USA when they know USA to be the one who is invading? who will fight alongside USA? USA or for that matter, "Allies" do not have the moral upper hand in the world, no one has. every nation is the same so why not accept that as a reality and move on? russia may indeed be the bad guy here. heck, putin might be personally responsible for murder of thousands but so is bush and obama so how does that give usa the right ? one commenter said "after 9/11 usa had to do something" and they invaded a soverign nation, destroyed it because a single person was responsible? its fine when usa takes revenge but russia cant defend its borders? i am not a troll, i am not a paid/unpaid actor. i just want to point out that there is propaganda on both sides, thats all
    - CRConrad 4y ago
      > >Some of us are still incensed by the lies that were trotted out though. > this is the only point i'm trying to make. And it's a bad one. Because: > suppose tomorrow biden comes up and wants to invade iran for example. will american public lap it up like they have for the last so many decades, The very line you quoted told you that many (most?) of them didn't "lap it up" then either. You're really not very good at this, are you? > its fine when usa takes revenge but russia cant defend its borders? Russia ISN'T "defend[ing] its borders"! Holy shit, how often do people have to explain this so you Putin-Versteher will get it?!? NOBODY WAS ABOUT TO ATTACK RUSSIA. > i am not a troll Even if you think you aren't, you're walking and quacking like one. Which in the end means you are one.
spaniard89277 4y ago
I care more because I understand it's happening in european soil, just on EU borders and Ukranians feel as Europeans as Romanians are. So yes there's a gregarian component to it, yet it also have a huge impact for us. Russia did this because they know we're dependent on their energy and there's little the EU can do without stomaching huge economic losses. It's not about peace, It's about interests,a power struggle. Russia also invaded Georgia, and Azerbaijan had a war with Armenia yet the EU did almost nothing about it. I'd really like to have a paceful relationship with Russia, as it's on our best interests, but it seems they don't think the same about us.
cycomanic 4y ago
I believe you raise some good questions and I have contemplated many of those myself. I do believe what we are seeing in Ukraine is different though qualitatively and quantitatively. I will give my reasons below. 1. Ukraine is in Europe, now that should not make a difference, but it does. Historically conflicts in Europe (in contrast to other parts of the world) have a much higher tendency to escalate into world-wide conflicts. 2. Ukraine, in contrast to Iraq, Libya and Syria is a reasonably functioning democracy (although with many issues). 3. The rhetoric out of Russia (and this is from Russian TV channels etc. not western propaganda) towards annihilation of Ukrainians is quite different to any of the things being said from the west in the other wars. There is also no evidence that in any of the other conflicts the US or its allies were using rapes as a systematic weapon against the civil population. I also take issue with a couple of your points, you mention Afghanistan and Syria as being razed by America and its allies, you conveniently forgot the role of Russia in the destruction of those countries (Aleppo was destroyed by Russian mercenaries and Syrian troops for example). You also didn't mention Georgia, or Chechnya, were essentially nobody said anything either although it was Russia who invaded. In fact I believe most of the west was hoping for a quick win for the Russians in Ukraine as well, so they could just go back to "normal". You say: > does not equate to waging a war against america like its being done against russia. That is a very weird interpretation of what is going on, no matter if you believe that there is propaganda on both sides, lets not forget Russia invaded Ukraine. It is Russian soldiers fighting Ukrainian soldiers, so far no "Western" soldiers are involved so how is anyone waging war against Russia? Finally, I find this sort of argument highly suspect. You argue that Iraq, Libya, Syria were unjust and lament the fact that there was not enough being done, but now you argue we should ignore Ukraine because it's Russia who is doing it? Is your argument, as long as the people I like do it it is ok? Were you not the one who were complaining about exactly this earlier?
xdennis 4y ago
> i am not sympathizing with anyone for that matter For someone who is neutral, when Russia is committing war crimes, you spend a lot of your time talking about the US.
selimthegrim 4y ago
America isn’t annexing those countries. If I go down the street in Baramulla or Bijbehara (assuming no forces around) and ask what people think about Pak getting involved or not involved in Yemen what do you think they would say? Or about what Saudi Arabia doing? More to the point, do they think BD were traitors for leaving Pak in 1971? Or Muslims can never commit war crimes against other Muslims? Afghans never occupied Kashmir?

phatfish 4y ago

Do you really need to ask why? Because Ukraine is on the doorstep of Europe, that's why Europeans care more, and by proxy the US. As for Iraq, yes people did care, there were large protests in London and Tony Blair is still hated by the general public in the UK. I don't know the real feeling in the US. The UK government didn't listen because Tony wanted his ego boost on the world stage. The only NATO backed war of that era which had any grounds was in Afghanistan, Bin Laden attacked the US, and the US had to do something. It was executed terribly in the beginning (from what I understand the Afghans wanted to help get rid of Bin Laden) but in the end there was justification. Iraq was illegal and only gave Russia cover for its actions against it's neighbours rich up until the Ukraine invasion.

herbst 4y ago
> Because Ukraine is on the doorstep of Europe, that's why Europeans care more, and by proxy the US. But only since Russia started invading. When news about Ukraine were still all about their corrupt government, breaking human rights, their horrible prisons and more like that nobody thought Ukraine to to 'close' or anything. It's obvious the whole perception of Ukraine just suddenly changed because Russia is the bad guy.
- SyzygistSix 4y ago
  True. Before there was little common ground but now the populations of countries like the US, Baltics, and Poland have significant common ground and feel much closer to the Ukrainian people because of the common value of freedom and sovereignty, both of which are held very dear. There is nothing strange or hypocritical about that.
  - herbst 4y ago
    It's kinda hypocritical as Ukraine is standing for much but not any of these values in recent history https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Ukraine#Situation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Ukraine#Situ... but I totally see your point.
- emptysongglass 4y ago
  That isn't true. Many of us worked with Ukrainians before the war, especially in the software industry, such as myself. There was no sudden perceptual change. I observed the fear and anxiety my Ukrainian coworkers experienced directly. They are European and they did not deserve this invasion and as far as I'm concerned deserve all the help and compassion the rest of us can offer.
  - herbst 4y ago
    I am not denying any of this. I only have a minimal idea of how the situation is or was in the Ukraine, and don't claim to know. I hope the best for all of them. I just struggle with the idea of sending weapons to a country that has a well recorded near history of human right violations. In my opinion the public voice is less about the actual people but about political fears.
  - denton-scratch 4y ago
    > They are European "European" is a rather loose term. When I was a kid, Europe stopped at the border with East Germany. Later, a bunch of former soviet countries became "european" countries. Then Ukraine. For a while, Russia was acclaimed as a european country (it's still often described that way in the UK press). Call me an old fogey, but I'm still doubtful that the former East Germany is really european yet. Being "european" is a question of culture, not of political alliances and borders.
JKCalhoun 4y ago
> I don't know the real feeling in the US. About half of us called bullshit the instant "WMDs" were paraded as the reason to go to war. And I think the other half have, over time, come to see the whole operation as a regretful waste of time, money, and lives. So, no, I don't think there are any fans of the U.S. invasion of Iraq still around. Some of us are still incensed by the lies that were trotted out though.
- 2Gkashmiri 4y ago
  >Some of us are still incensed by the lies that were trotted out though. this is the only point i'm trying to make. suppose tomorrow biden comes up and wants to invade iran for example. will american public lap it up like they have for the last so many decades, thats there but what about the rest of the world community? how many will arm IRAN against USA when they know USA to be the one who is invading? who will fight alongside USA? USA or for that matter, "Allies" do not have the moral upper hand in the world, no one has. every nation is the same so why not accept that as a reality and move on? russia may indeed be the bad guy here. heck, putin might be personally responsible for murder of thousands but so is bush and obama so how does that give usa the right ? one commenter said "after 9/11 usa had to do something" and they invaded a soverign nation, destroyed it because a single person was responsible? its fine when usa takes revenge but russia cant defend its borders? i am not a troll, i am not a paid/unpaid actor. i just want to point out that there is propaganda on both sides, thats all
  - CRConrad 4y ago
    > >Some of us are still incensed by the lies that were trotted out though. > this is the only point i'm trying to make. And it's a bad one. Because: > suppose tomorrow biden comes up and wants to invade iran for example. will american public lap it up like they have for the last so many decades, The very line you quoted told you that many (most?) of them didn't "lap it up" then either. You're really not very good at this, are you? > its fine when usa takes revenge but russia cant defend its borders? Russia ISN'T "defend[ing] its borders"! Holy shit, how often do people have to explain this so you Putin-Versteher will get it?!? NOBODY WAS ABOUT TO ATTACK RUSSIA. > i am not a troll Even if you think you aren't, you're walking and quacking like one. Which in the end means you are one.

spaniard89277 4y ago

I care more because I understand it's happening in european soil, just on EU borders and Ukranians feel as Europeans as Romanians are. So yes there's a gregarian component to it, yet it also have a huge impact for us. Russia did this because they know we're dependent on their energy and there's little the EU can do without stomaching huge economic losses. It's not about peace, It's about interests,a power struggle. Russia also invaded Georgia, and Azerbaijan had a war with Armenia yet the EU did almost nothing about it. I'd really like to have a paceful relationship with Russia, as it's on our best interests, but it seems they don't think the same about us.

cycomanic 4y ago

I believe you raise some good questions and I have contemplated many of those myself. I do believe what we are seeing in Ukraine is different though qualitatively and quantitatively. I will give my reasons below. 1. Ukraine is in Europe, now that should not make a difference, but it does. Historically conflicts in Europe (in contrast to other parts of the world) have a much higher tendency to escalate into world-wide conflicts. 2. Ukraine, in contrast to Iraq, Libya and Syria is a reasonably functioning democracy (although with many issues). 3. The rhetoric out of Russia (and this is from Russian TV channels etc. not western propaganda) towards annihilation of Ukrainians is quite different to any of the things being said from the west in the other wars. There is also no evidence that in any of the other conflicts the US or its allies were using rapes as a systematic weapon against the civil population. I also take issue with a couple of your points, you mention Afghanistan and Syria as being razed by America and its allies, you conveniently forgot the role of Russia in the destruction of those countries (Aleppo was destroyed by Russian mercenaries and Syrian troops for example). You also didn't mention Georgia, or Chechnya, were essentially nobody said anything either although it was Russia who invaded. In fact I believe most of the west was hoping for a quick win for the Russians in Ukraine as well, so they could just go back to "normal". You say: > does not equate to waging a war against america like its being done against russia. That is a very weird interpretation of what is going on, no matter if you believe that there is propaganda on both sides, lets not forget Russia invaded Ukraine. It is Russian soldiers fighting Ukrainian soldiers, so far no "Western" soldiers are involved so how is anyone waging war against Russia? Finally, I find this sort of argument highly suspect. You argue that Iraq, Libya, Syria were unjust and lament the fact that there was not enough being done, but now you argue we should ignore Ukraine because it's Russia who is doing it? Is your argument, as long as the people I like do it it is ok? Were you not the one who were complaining about exactly this earlier?

xdennis 4y ago

> i am not sympathizing with anyone for that matter For someone who is neutral, when Russia is committing war crimes, you spend a lot of your time talking about the US.

selimthegrim 4y ago

America isn’t annexing those countries. If I go down the street in Baramulla or Bijbehara (assuming no forces around) and ask what people think about Pak getting involved or not involved in Yemen what do you think they would say? Or about what Saudi Arabia doing? More to the point, do they think BD were traitors for leaving Pak in 1971? Or Muslims can never commit war crimes against other Muslims? Afghans never occupied Kashmir?