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>Obviously these comments make no sense. Its not so obvious if you've been paying attention to NATO expansion, as compared to NATO promises. NATO bases have b

by aa-jv 4y ago

>Obviously these comments make no sense. Its not so obvious if you've been paying attention to NATO expansion, as compared to NATO promises. NATO bases have been being used to launch crimes against humanity and war crimes (with seeming impunity) for decades - the Russians have good reasons to want NATO to stand down. The West has a long and sordid history of committing war crimes, and then ignoring their war criminals - indeed, leaving them in charge with cart blanche to commit yet more wars. This fact seems easily ignored by those rooting for NATO's triumph, but for those of us who have been paying attention to the Wests' war crimes - for decades - the argument that 'there is nothing to worry about because NATO are innocent' falls very, very flat.

mrep 4y ago
So even if NATO completely surrounded Russia, do you think any of said war crimes would actually be committed against Russia directly because if so I want whatever you're smoking. They have 6000 nukes and US + EU combined have 25 times the GDP of Russia. We have everything to lose and practically nothing to gain from attacking Russias worthless economy.
- aa-jv 4y ago
  Yes, I do believe that NATO is a war-crime committing, human-rights abusing entity that is bringing much death and destruction and turmoil to the world for the sake of special interests - political and commercial - who stand to gain billions in profit from every single NATO base built. But, I've been paying attention to NATO's war crimes over the last two decades, as well as the immensely evil crimes against humanity committed by the Wests' 5-eyes nations in their disgusting wars. Why haven't you?
  - gwd 4y ago
    You know what would be really helpful here? Links to sources to know what the heck you're talking about. Preferably Wikipedia pages or something like that. And no, "do your own research" is not a valid answer.
    - aa-jv 4y ago
      - gwd 4y ago
        Providing evidence and arguments to support your claims is not "spoonfed bootlicking". Your claim was: "NATO is a war-crime committing, human-rights abusing entity." The first seems to be a link collecting data points for civilian casualties. I don't see any NATO actions on there; and in any case it's missing the further evidence that war crimes and human rights abuse occurred. The second page, on the front page anyway, has nothing about NATO whatsoever as far as I could tell.
        aa-jv 4y ago
        Airwars tracks civilian casualties of war. These casualties - war crimes and crimes against humanity - are committed by NATO members and aligned states almost every single day. NATO bases are used to launch the attacks. NATO resources are used to cover up the crimes. Clearly, you're not asking for this information in good faith, or else you'd have discerned this already, even with a casual look at the Airwars reports, which details quite descriptively the nature of NATO involvement in war crimes and crimes against humanity. As far as your glib understanding of Wikileaks, I suggest you really, really study the material.
        CRConrad 4y ago
        > are committed by NATO members and aligned states That's not the same as committed by NATO.
  - cycomanic 4y ago
    You didn't answer the previous posters question. I actually am well aware of the crimes committed by NATO members (I would argue that they were not under NATO mandate though, except maybe Serbia, but that's a different argument). BTW the most atrocious crimes go back way more than 20 years. I also know that many western nations have been very nonchalant about violations of international law by their own allies, and I seriously hope that one of the outcomes of this crisis is that the Europeans in particular realize that to be believable you can't close your eyes just because it's your "friends". All the above is true, but that doesn't change the fact that the motivation of the former eastern block countries is driven by a deep skepticism/fear of Russia and their politics of invading and repressing their neighbors. There is a reason why the Baltic states and Poland are the largest supporters of Ukraine, there is very strong opposition towards the Russian state, despite all countries having large Russian minorities. Also with the (certainly justified) complaints about the "aggressive west", lets not act like Russia is some sort of innocent victim instead of being wannabe imperialists that are worse by pretty much any standard (and China is a completely different discussion).
    - aa-jv 4y ago
      >You didn't answer the previous posters question. I, in fact, answered it. YES, I believe NATO will commit further war crimes and continued crimes against humanity in its lust to demolish Russia. It has a long history of doing so already and shows no signs that it will stop its criminal behaviours in the near future.
      - cycomanic 4y ago
        You said: >Yes, I do believe that NATO is a war-crime committing, human-rights abusing entity that is bringing much death and destruction and turmoil to the world for the sake of special interests - political and commercial - who stand to gain billions in profit from every single NATO base built. >But, I've been paying attention to NATO's war crimes over the last two decades, as well as the immensely evil crimes against humanity committed by the Wests' 5-eyes nations in their disgusting wars. Why haven't you? So no you did not answer the question. Now I have a question for you, how did NATO force Russia to invade Ukraine, considering it is somehow part of their plan of "continued crimes against humanity in its lust to demolish Russia". Second question, do you think what Russia is doing in Ukraine are crimes against humanity? If not why?
  - mrep 4y ago
    > who stand to gain billions in profit from every single NATO base built Broken window fallacy [0]. That money spent on bases is a cost we'd rather not spend because it could be spent on other things or just saved with reduced taxes giving us citizens more of our money back. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window
    - aa-jv 4y ago
      The fact is, billions and billions in profits have been made by every single NATO base built, and it has not stopped a single damn war. In fact, NATO bases have been used to commit one heinous atrocity after the other for the last 30 years.
      - mrep 4y ago
        I don't think you understand what profit means.
        aa-jv 4y ago
        I sure know what it means to Lockheed Martin (LMT), Northrop Grumman (NOG) and Raytheon (RTN). So do many, many others - thankfully: https://canadiandimension.com/articles/view/the-soaring-profits-of-the-military-industrial-complex-and-casualties https://canadiandimension.com/articles/view/the-soaring-prof...
        mrep 4y ago
        All paid for by taxpayers so overall a net cost which is what matters to the average citizen.
  - wiseowise 4y ago
    Nobody asked about your opinion of NATO, answer the question.
    - aa-jv 4y ago
      Yes, NATO-aligned states do currently commit war crimes and crimes against humanity at heinous scale - with seeming impunity - and there is nothing to indicate this would change in their battle against Russia. Sanctions - factually, crimes against humanity since they collectively punish an entire nation - are already evidence of the intentions of the West in dealing with Russia: to see its destruction.
      - CRConrad 4y ago
        > NATO-aligned states Notice the constant careful weasel-wording.
phatfish 4y ago
The Russians are in no position to ask for anything. They have proved that unless they are invading a much less militarily capable neighbour (being the local bully) they do not have the resources or ability to worry a NATO force. Hence the reason Sweden and Finland will now join. Only the nuclear threat remains, which would mean the annihilation of Russia to save one mans ego if it was ever used.
- desproges 4y ago
klausjensen 4y ago
NATO "expanded" when sovereign, democratic countries CHOSE to apply for NATO-membership, completely voluntarily, because they beleive it was and is the best deterrent for Russia to invade them. A lot of countries bordering Russia have been invaded in the past 30 years by Russia. Always leaving a trail of warcrimes, poverty, rapes, murdered and tortured civilians etc. None of these countries were NATO members. No wonder Eastern Europe were eager to join NATO. NATO is not perfect, neither are the member countries, but compared to Russia, it is pretty much sparkles and rainbows. (edit: typos)
- aa-jv 4y ago
  >completely volutarily The CIA has entered the chat. >A lot of countries bordering Russia have been invaded in the past 30 years by Russia. I assure you, the West has invaded - and left in utter ruin - far more sovereign democratic nations than Russia has. It was only able to do that due to NATO support, from which bases many crimes against humanity and war crimes have been committed. The Russians know this about NATO, even if Americans don't.
  - stoltzmann 4y ago
    Do you have a single fact to back up your accusation of CIA meddling with NATO membership? The truth is, that countries want to join NATO so that Russia does not invade them. That's the sole reason.
    - aa-jv 4y ago
      Thats the propaganda/PR reason, readily parroted throughout a mainstream media that is literally owned by the people selling bombs to NATO. You might want to start your journey of enlightenment here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio#Operations_in_NATO_countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio#Operations_in...
      - stoltzmann 4y ago
        Do you have a single fact to back up your accusation of CIA meddling with NATO membership? Your link does not prove that. Also, you have not provided any sources on the dismissal of reasons for joining NATO. Please do link to them if you have any evidence. As is, it looks like you're parroting anti-NATO propaganda - it seems you're acting in bad faith. Are you paid for by the Russians?
rocqua 4y ago
> NATO bases have been being used to launch crimes against humanity and war crimes (with seeming impunity) for decades. Any sources, or hints at what you are referring to? I have no clue what you might be hinting at. Normally (whether I believe that statement or not) I at least have some idea what is being referred to with allegations like this.
- aa-jv 4y ago
  Start here: http://airwars.org/ http://airwars.org/

by aa-jv 4y ago

mrep 4y ago

So even if NATO completely surrounded Russia, do you think any of said war crimes would actually be committed against Russia directly because if so I want whatever you're smoking. They have 6000 nukes and US + EU combined have 25 times the GDP of Russia. We have everything to lose and practically nothing to gain from attacking Russias worthless economy.

aa-jv 4y ago
Yes, I do believe that NATO is a war-crime committing, human-rights abusing entity that is bringing much death and destruction and turmoil to the world for the sake of special interests - political and commercial - who stand to gain billions in profit from every single NATO base built. But, I've been paying attention to NATO's war crimes over the last two decades, as well as the immensely evil crimes against humanity committed by the Wests' 5-eyes nations in their disgusting wars. Why haven't you?
- gwd 4y ago
  You know what would be really helpful here? Links to sources to know what the heck you're talking about. Preferably Wikipedia pages or something like that. And no, "do your own research" is not a valid answer.
  - aa-jv 4y ago
    - gwd 4y ago
      Providing evidence and arguments to support your claims is not "spoonfed bootlicking". Your claim was: "NATO is a war-crime committing, human-rights abusing entity." The first seems to be a link collecting data points for civilian casualties. I don't see any NATO actions on there; and in any case it's missing the further evidence that war crimes and human rights abuse occurred. The second page, on the front page anyway, has nothing about NATO whatsoever as far as I could tell.
      - aa-jv 4y ago
        Airwars tracks civilian casualties of war. These casualties - war crimes and crimes against humanity - are committed by NATO members and aligned states almost every single day. NATO bases are used to launch the attacks. NATO resources are used to cover up the crimes. Clearly, you're not asking for this information in good faith, or else you'd have discerned this already, even with a casual look at the Airwars reports, which details quite descriptively the nature of NATO involvement in war crimes and crimes against humanity. As far as your glib understanding of Wikileaks, I suggest you really, really study the material.
        CRConrad 4y ago
        > are committed by NATO members and aligned states That's not the same as committed by NATO.
- cycomanic 4y ago
  You didn't answer the previous posters question. I actually am well aware of the crimes committed by NATO members (I would argue that they were not under NATO mandate though, except maybe Serbia, but that's a different argument). BTW the most atrocious crimes go back way more than 20 years. I also know that many western nations have been very nonchalant about violations of international law by their own allies, and I seriously hope that one of the outcomes of this crisis is that the Europeans in particular realize that to be believable you can't close your eyes just because it's your "friends". All the above is true, but that doesn't change the fact that the motivation of the former eastern block countries is driven by a deep skepticism/fear of Russia and their politics of invading and repressing their neighbors. There is a reason why the Baltic states and Poland are the largest supporters of Ukraine, there is very strong opposition towards the Russian state, despite all countries having large Russian minorities. Also with the (certainly justified) complaints about the "aggressive west", lets not act like Russia is some sort of innocent victim instead of being wannabe imperialists that are worse by pretty much any standard (and China is a completely different discussion).
  - aa-jv 4y ago
    >You didn't answer the previous posters question. I, in fact, answered it. YES, I believe NATO will commit further war crimes and continued crimes against humanity in its lust to demolish Russia. It has a long history of doing so already and shows no signs that it will stop its criminal behaviours in the near future.
    - cycomanic 4y ago
      You said: >Yes, I do believe that NATO is a war-crime committing, human-rights abusing entity that is bringing much death and destruction and turmoil to the world for the sake of special interests - political and commercial - who stand to gain billions in profit from every single NATO base built. >But, I've been paying attention to NATO's war crimes over the last two decades, as well as the immensely evil crimes against humanity committed by the Wests' 5-eyes nations in their disgusting wars. Why haven't you? So no you did not answer the question. Now I have a question for you, how did NATO force Russia to invade Ukraine, considering it is somehow part of their plan of "continued crimes against humanity in its lust to demolish Russia". Second question, do you think what Russia is doing in Ukraine are crimes against humanity? If not why?
- mrep 4y ago
  > who stand to gain billions in profit from every single NATO base built Broken window fallacy [0]. That money spent on bases is a cost we'd rather not spend because it could be spent on other things or just saved with reduced taxes giving us citizens more of our money back. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window
  - aa-jv 4y ago
    The fact is, billions and billions in profits have been made by every single NATO base built, and it has not stopped a single damn war. In fact, NATO bases have been used to commit one heinous atrocity after the other for the last 30 years.
    - mrep 4y ago
      I don't think you understand what profit means.
      - aa-jv 4y ago
        I sure know what it means to Lockheed Martin (LMT), Northrop Grumman (NOG) and Raytheon (RTN). So do many, many others - thankfully: https://canadiandimension.com/articles/view/the-soaring-profits-of-the-military-industrial-complex-and-casualties https://canadiandimension.com/articles/view/the-soaring-prof...
        mrep 4y ago
        All paid for by taxpayers so overall a net cost which is what matters to the average citizen.
- wiseowise 4y ago
  Nobody asked about your opinion of NATO, answer the question.
  - aa-jv 4y ago
    Yes, NATO-aligned states do currently commit war crimes and crimes against humanity at heinous scale - with seeming impunity - and there is nothing to indicate this would change in their battle against Russia. Sanctions - factually, crimes against humanity since they collectively punish an entire nation - are already evidence of the intentions of the West in dealing with Russia: to see its destruction.
    - CRConrad 4y ago
      > NATO-aligned states Notice the constant careful weasel-wording.

phatfish 4y ago

The Russians are in no position to ask for anything. They have proved that unless they are invading a much less militarily capable neighbour (being the local bully) they do not have the resources or ability to worry a NATO force. Hence the reason Sweden and Finland will now join. Only the nuclear threat remains, which would mean the annihilation of Russia to save one mans ego if it was ever used.

desproges 4y ago

klausjensen 4y ago

NATO "expanded" when sovereign, democratic countries CHOSE to apply for NATO-membership, completely voluntarily, because they beleive it was and is the best deterrent for Russia to invade them. A lot of countries bordering Russia have been invaded in the past 30 years by Russia. Always leaving a trail of warcrimes, poverty, rapes, murdered and tortured civilians etc. None of these countries were NATO members. No wonder Eastern Europe were eager to join NATO. NATO is not perfect, neither are the member countries, but compared to Russia, it is pretty much sparkles and rainbows. (edit: typos)

aa-jv 4y ago
>completely volutarily The CIA has entered the chat. >A lot of countries bordering Russia have been invaded in the past 30 years by Russia. I assure you, the West has invaded - and left in utter ruin - far more sovereign democratic nations than Russia has. It was only able to do that due to NATO support, from which bases many crimes against humanity and war crimes have been committed. The Russians know this about NATO, even if Americans don't.
- stoltzmann 4y ago
  Do you have a single fact to back up your accusation of CIA meddling with NATO membership? The truth is, that countries want to join NATO so that Russia does not invade them. That's the sole reason.
  - aa-jv 4y ago
    Thats the propaganda/PR reason, readily parroted throughout a mainstream media that is literally owned by the people selling bombs to NATO. You might want to start your journey of enlightenment here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio#Operations_in_NATO_countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio#Operations_in...
    - stoltzmann 4y ago
      Do you have a single fact to back up your accusation of CIA meddling with NATO membership? Your link does not prove that. Also, you have not provided any sources on the dismissal of reasons for joining NATO. Please do link to them if you have any evidence. As is, it looks like you're parroting anti-NATO propaganda - it seems you're acting in bad faith. Are you paid for by the Russians?

rocqua 4y ago

> NATO bases have been being used to launch crimes against humanity and war crimes (with seeming impunity) for decades. Any sources, or hints at what you are referring to? I have no clue what you might be hinting at. Normally (whether I believe that statement or not) I at least have some idea what is being referred to with allegations like this.

aa-jv 4y ago
Start here: http://airwars.org/ http://airwars.org/