5 ms·

Maybe it was just friendliness towards Russian people? This war is entirely political. Most Russians don't seem to want to invade other countries.

golergka 4y ago
> Most Russians don't seem to want to invade other countries. Most Russians that a typical HN user would encounter — English-speaking, educated, probably with skills in demand inside and outside Russia — don't. Typical Russians, on the other hand, are quite openly fascist at this point.
- doikor 4y ago
  Don't mistake of thinking that the educated or political elite in Saint Petersburg or Moscow are not mostly in favor Russian supremacy over Ukraine. A lot of them truly do think that Ukraine is just a part of Russia and killing anyone there who thinks othewise is just fine. A lot of them look back at the Soviet or imperial times with rose tinted glasses and say "this was when Russia was at its best".
emteycz 4y ago
Even the studies that assume a lot of people are lying to stay safe are saying at least 60% of Russians support the war and Putin.
michaelmrose 4y ago
> Most Russians don't seem to want to invade other countries. What are you basing this on? https://www.levada.ru/en/ratings/ https://www.levada.ru/en/ratings/ This seems to show strong support for the Russian government and this analysis seems to suggest that few Russians are concerned about Russians crimes and as many as half are very supportive of horrific violence against people they see as nonhuman. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14623528.2022.2074020 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14623528.2022.2...
- Oreols 4y ago
  Those are polls in a fascist state. People will say what they think they need to say to stay safe. But you're not wrong, lots of people just went full nazi
  - sph 4y ago
    Can we please learn the difference between fascism, nationalism and nazism? Putin nor his supporters haven't gone full nazi. Full fascist, perhaps. Nationalist, definitely. He used the "denazify Ukraine" slogan when Zelenskyy is actually Jewish not because of deep seated racial or religious motivations, but just to get more of the populace to buy his belligerent cause. Putin just cares about Crimea, Sevastopol, and the strategic importance of the Black Sea (oil and military).
    - michaelmrose 4y ago
      What is the difference between the Nazis and Putin's Russia today? A fascist State organized around one man organizing the genocide of an ethnicity to further his geopolitical aims and restore his nation to a position of prominence and prestige in world affairs who destroys not only others but his own people as well. He's just using Ukrainians instead of Jewish folks seems more like an implimentation detail. Even hating them is completely optional. People aren't just using Nazi as a purjorative the regime literally fits a template.
      - watwut 4y ago
        Glad you asked. Nazis ideology was based on strong genetic/biological definition of race. It was all about who your grand-parents were. It believed in struggle for survival for races and whole pyramid of races. Aryans on top (not whites), Jews as main enemies/bottom and dangerous, Slavic people low on hierarchy but not dangerous. It also believed Germans need more "living space" as Germany is too small. The place to colonize was East. They also believed in "survival of fittest" and competition. That influenced the way they build institutions and how they treated sick etc. They liked to have two institutions with same goal and have them compete. Russia is different in all three points. It does not care much about own disabled, but they are not seen as threat the way Germans seen disabled. Russian parents with sick kid dont have to be afraid to go to see doctor for example. > He's just using Ukrainians instead of Jewish folks seems more like an implementation detail. Even hating them is completely optional. Both ideologies are very very different in how they treat subjects, actually. For instance, Ukrainians became subject of genocide after they refused Russia domination - Jews had no such option. Russians claim Ukrainians are Russia by blood and deserve punishment for considering themselves apart. Meanwhile, many many German Jews considered themselves Germans. That is underappreciated point - but a lot of them were German patriots, veterans of WWI, married ethnical Germans and were atheists. Edited to add: Russia is also significantly less totalitarian them Germany was back then. It is autocracy/dictatorship, but it is not nearly as oppressive internally as Nazi Germany was. Timing is different too, its move toward complete lock of press happened only after invasion of Ukraine - contrast with German who did that long before military moves.
formerly_proven 4y ago
1420
- andybak 4y ago
  I had to google it but I think this is a reference to a YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl4R4M9YVfYjjPmILU2Ie1A https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl4R4M9YVfYjjPmILU2Ie1A
pmontra 4y ago
> Most Russians don't seem to want to invade other countries. This is true for basically every people every time in history. People care about food, family, a house, medical care. All is well until some government starts pushing them into a warring state of mind. Examples from the previous generation of European wars, when Italy invented fascism, Germany followed suit ten years later and both countries started to think about land grabs in Europe and Africa. We got WW2 first but only 12 years after the end of it France, Germany, Italy and the Benelux started the process [1] that led to the current EU. All friends again. My bet: without the current leadership and their propaganda very few Russians would think about invading other countries so be ready to reach out to them when it will be all over. What we don't have to do is to start a process like the one that led Germany from the defeat in WW1 to desires of revenge and WW2, or Russia from the defeat in the Cold War to the current attempt to create its empire again. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Community https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Community
- T-zex 4y ago
  Italian and German fascism lasted relatively short period of time. Generation that "invented" it had a chance to change their mind. Russian fascism runs for multiple generations. Russia never was democratic. Russian mentality is to have an aggressive leader ("бьёт - значит любит"). Navalny is perceived as an alternative to Putin, but he supported Crimean annexation and Georgian war. There is no evidence the remedies that worked for Nazi Germany will work for Russia.
  - CRConrad 4y ago
    The de-totalitarianization of the people will have to be all the more thorough.
- pbourke 4y ago
  > What we don't have to do is to start a process like the one that led Germany from the defeat in WW1 to desires of revenge and WW2, or Russia from the defeat in the Cold War to the current attempt to create its empire again. I note, grimly, that your positive example (Germany and Italy post-WW2) was precipitated by the total defeat, occupation and renovation of those two states by the victors of the war. That is not possible in the current situation, where the best case outcome is that Russia retreats to pre-2014 borders with Ukraine.

golergka 4y ago

> Most Russians don't seem to want to invade other countries. Most Russians that a typical HN user would encounter — English-speaking, educated, probably with skills in demand inside and outside Russia — don't. Typical Russians, on the other hand, are quite openly fascist at this point.

doikor 4y ago
Don't mistake of thinking that the educated or political elite in Saint Petersburg or Moscow are not mostly in favor Russian supremacy over Ukraine. A lot of them truly do think that Ukraine is just a part of Russia and killing anyone there who thinks othewise is just fine. A lot of them look back at the Soviet or imperial times with rose tinted glasses and say "this was when Russia was at its best".

emteycz 4y ago

Even the studies that assume a lot of people are lying to stay safe are saying at least 60% of Russians support the war and Putin.

michaelmrose 4y ago

> Most Russians don't seem to want to invade other countries. What are you basing this on? https://www.levada.ru/en/ratings/ https://www.levada.ru/en/ratings/ This seems to show strong support for the Russian government and this analysis seems to suggest that few Russians are concerned about Russians crimes and as many as half are very supportive of horrific violence against people they see as nonhuman. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14623528.2022.2074020 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14623528.2022.2...

Oreols 4y ago
Those are polls in a fascist state. People will say what they think they need to say to stay safe. But you're not wrong, lots of people just went full nazi
- sph 4y ago
  Can we please learn the difference between fascism, nationalism and nazism? Putin nor his supporters haven't gone full nazi. Full fascist, perhaps. Nationalist, definitely. He used the "denazify Ukraine" slogan when Zelenskyy is actually Jewish not because of deep seated racial or religious motivations, but just to get more of the populace to buy his belligerent cause. Putin just cares about Crimea, Sevastopol, and the strategic importance of the Black Sea (oil and military).
  - michaelmrose 4y ago
    What is the difference between the Nazis and Putin's Russia today? A fascist State organized around one man organizing the genocide of an ethnicity to further his geopolitical aims and restore his nation to a position of prominence and prestige in world affairs who destroys not only others but his own people as well. He's just using Ukrainians instead of Jewish folks seems more like an implimentation detail. Even hating them is completely optional. People aren't just using Nazi as a purjorative the regime literally fits a template.
    - watwut 4y ago
      Glad you asked. Nazis ideology was based on strong genetic/biological definition of race. It was all about who your grand-parents were. It believed in struggle for survival for races and whole pyramid of races. Aryans on top (not whites), Jews as main enemies/bottom and dangerous, Slavic people low on hierarchy but not dangerous. It also believed Germans need more "living space" as Germany is too small. The place to colonize was East. They also believed in "survival of fittest" and competition. That influenced the way they build institutions and how they treated sick etc. They liked to have two institutions with same goal and have them compete. Russia is different in all three points. It does not care much about own disabled, but they are not seen as threat the way Germans seen disabled. Russian parents with sick kid dont have to be afraid to go to see doctor for example. > He's just using Ukrainians instead of Jewish folks seems more like an implementation detail. Even hating them is completely optional. Both ideologies are very very different in how they treat subjects, actually. For instance, Ukrainians became subject of genocide after they refused Russia domination - Jews had no such option. Russians claim Ukrainians are Russia by blood and deserve punishment for considering themselves apart. Meanwhile, many many German Jews considered themselves Germans. That is underappreciated point - but a lot of them were German patriots, veterans of WWI, married ethnical Germans and were atheists. Edited to add: Russia is also significantly less totalitarian them Germany was back then. It is autocracy/dictatorship, but it is not nearly as oppressive internally as Nazi Germany was. Timing is different too, its move toward complete lock of press happened only after invasion of Ukraine - contrast with German who did that long before military moves.

formerly_proven 4y ago

1420

andybak 4y ago
I had to google it but I think this is a reference to a YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl4R4M9YVfYjjPmILU2Ie1A https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl4R4M9YVfYjjPmILU2Ie1A

pmontra 4y ago

> Most Russians don't seem to want to invade other countries. This is true for basically every people every time in history. People care about food, family, a house, medical care. All is well until some government starts pushing them into a warring state of mind. Examples from the previous generation of European wars, when Italy invented fascism, Germany followed suit ten years later and both countries started to think about land grabs in Europe and Africa. We got WW2 first but only 12 years after the end of it France, Germany, Italy and the Benelux started the process [1] that led to the current EU. All friends again. My bet: without the current leadership and their propaganda very few Russians would think about invading other countries so be ready to reach out to them when it will be all over. What we don't have to do is to start a process like the one that led Germany from the defeat in WW1 to desires of revenge and WW2, or Russia from the defeat in the Cold War to the current attempt to create its empire again. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Community https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Community

T-zex 4y ago
Italian and German fascism lasted relatively short period of time. Generation that "invented" it had a chance to change their mind. Russian fascism runs for multiple generations. Russia never was democratic. Russian mentality is to have an aggressive leader ("бьёт - значит любит"). Navalny is perceived as an alternative to Putin, but he supported Crimean annexation and Georgian war. There is no evidence the remedies that worked for Nazi Germany will work for Russia.
- CRConrad 4y ago
  The de-totalitarianization of the people will have to be all the more thorough.
pbourke 4y ago
> What we don't have to do is to start a process like the one that led Germany from the defeat in WW1 to desires of revenge and WW2, or Russia from the defeat in the Cold War to the current attempt to create its empire again. I note, grimly, that your positive example (Germany and Italy post-WW2) was precipitated by the total defeat, occupation and renovation of those two states by the victors of the war. That is not possible in the current situation, where the best case outcome is that Russia retreats to pre-2014 borders with Ukraine.