8 ms·

Has Finland significant pro-Russian politicians? Or at least pro before February 2022? I visited there a while ago and there was a feel of Russian friendliness

Has Finland significant pro-Russian politicians? Or at least pro before February 2022? I visited there a while ago and there was a feel of Russian friendliness at the least with significant independence on the streets. But that's just my feelings and I wasn't paying attention back then.

nine_zeros 4y ago
Maybe it was just friendliness towards Russian people? This war is entirely political. Most Russians don't seem to want to invade other countries.
- golergka 4y ago
  > Most Russians don't seem to want to invade other countries. Most Russians that a typical HN user would encounter — English-speaking, educated, probably with skills in demand inside and outside Russia — don't. Typical Russians, on the other hand, are quite openly fascist at this point.
  - doikor 4y ago
    Don't mistake of thinking that the educated or political elite in Saint Petersburg or Moscow are not mostly in favor Russian supremacy over Ukraine. A lot of them truly do think that Ukraine is just a part of Russia and killing anyone there who thinks othewise is just fine. A lot of them look back at the Soviet or imperial times with rose tinted glasses and say "this was when Russia was at its best".
- emteycz 4y ago
  Even the studies that assume a lot of people are lying to stay safe are saying at least 60% of Russians support the war and Putin.
- michaelmrose 4y ago
  > Most Russians don't seem to want to invade other countries. What are you basing this on? https://www.levada.ru/en/ratings/ https://www.levada.ru/en/ratings/ This seems to show strong support for the Russian government and this analysis seems to suggest that few Russians are concerned about Russians crimes and as many as half are very supportive of horrific violence against people they see as nonhuman. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14623528.2022.2074020 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14623528.2022.2...
  - Oreols 4y ago
    Those are polls in a fascist state. People will say what they think they need to say to stay safe. But you're not wrong, lots of people just went full nazi
    - sph 4y ago
      Can we please learn the difference between fascism, nationalism and nazism? Putin nor his supporters haven't gone full nazi. Full fascist, perhaps. Nationalist, definitely. He used the "denazify Ukraine" slogan when Zelenskyy is actually Jewish not because of deep seated racial or religious motivations, but just to get more of the populace to buy his belligerent cause. Putin just cares about Crimea, Sevastopol, and the strategic importance of the Black Sea (oil and military).
      - michaelmrose 4y ago
        What is the difference between the Nazis and Putin's Russia today? A fascist State organized around one man organizing the genocide of an ethnicity to further his geopolitical aims and restore his nation to a position of prominence and prestige in world affairs who destroys not only others but his own people as well. He's just using Ukrainians instead of Jewish folks seems more like an implimentation detail. Even hating them is completely optional. People aren't just using Nazi as a purjorative the regime literally fits a template.
        watwut 4y ago
        Glad you asked. Nazis ideology was based on strong genetic/biological definition of race. It was all about who your grand-parents were. It believed in struggle for survival for races and whole pyramid of races. Aryans on top (not whites), Jews as main enemies/bottom and dangerous, Slavic people low on hierarchy but not dangerous. It also believed Germans need more "living space" as Germany is too small. The place to colonize was East. They also believed in "survival of fittest" and competition. That influenced the way they build institutions and how they treated sick etc. They liked to have two institutions with same goal and have them compete. Russia is different in all three points. It does not care much about own disabled, but they are not seen as threat the way Germans seen disabled. Russian parents with sick kid dont have to be afraid to go to see doctor for example. > He's just using Ukrainians instead of Jewish folks seems more like an implementation detail. Even hating them is completely optional. Both ideologies are very very different in how they treat subjects, actually. For instance, Ukrainians became subject of genocide after they refused Russia domination - Jews had no such option. Russians claim Ukrainians are Russia by blood and deserve punishment for considering themselves apart. Meanwhile, many many German Jews considered themselves Germans. That is underappreciated point - but a lot of them were German patriots, veterans of WWI, married ethnical Germans and were atheists. Edited to add: Russia is also significantly less totalitarian them Germany was back then. It is autocracy/dictatorship, but it is not nearly as oppressive internally as Nazi Germany was. Timing is different too, its move toward complete lock of press happened only after invasion of Ukraine - contrast with German who did that long before military moves.
- formerly_proven 4y ago
  1420
  - andybak 4y ago
    I had to google it but I think this is a reference to a YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl4R4M9YVfYjjPmILU2Ie1A https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl4R4M9YVfYjjPmILU2Ie1A
- pmontra 4y ago
  > Most Russians don't seem to want to invade other countries. This is true for basically every people every time in history. People care about food, family, a house, medical care. All is well until some government starts pushing them into a warring state of mind. Examples from the previous generation of European wars, when Italy invented fascism, Germany followed suit ten years later and both countries started to think about land grabs in Europe and Africa. We got WW2 first but only 12 years after the end of it France, Germany, Italy and the Benelux started the process [1] that led to the current EU. All friends again. My bet: without the current leadership and their propaganda very few Russians would think about invading other countries so be ready to reach out to them when it will be all over. What we don't have to do is to start a process like the one that led Germany from the defeat in WW1 to desires of revenge and WW2, or Russia from the defeat in the Cold War to the current attempt to create its empire again. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Community https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Community
  - T-zex 4y ago
    Italian and German fascism lasted relatively short period of time. Generation that "invented" it had a chance to change their mind. Russian fascism runs for multiple generations. Russia never was democratic. Russian mentality is to have an aggressive leader ("бьёт - значит любит"). Navalny is perceived as an alternative to Putin, but he supported Crimean annexation and Georgian war. There is no evidence the remedies that worked for Nazi Germany will work for Russia.
    - CRConrad 4y ago
      The de-totalitarianization of the people will have to be all the more thorough.
  - pbourke 4y ago
    > What we don't have to do is to start a process like the one that led Germany from the defeat in WW1 to desires of revenge and WW2, or Russia from the defeat in the Cold War to the current attempt to create its empire again. I note, grimly, that your positive example (Germany and Italy post-WW2) was precipitated by the total defeat, occupation and renovation of those two states by the victors of the war. That is not possible in the current situation, where the best case outcome is that Russia retreats to pre-2014 borders with Ukraine.
fsloth 4y ago
The Finnish political system was infiltrated by Russian assets (willing or just useful fools) for decades [0]. Luckily this has abated in the last decades. The people have deep suspicion of the Russian state but no particular animosity towards russian people in general. Most finns, especially the young generations, feel most affinity towards west in every sense. The Finnish language is Finno-Ugric and unrelated to slavic tongues hence there is a huge language gap. Finns don't as a rule undertand russian. The political and judicial system is based on western principles. So Russia in general is a very alien entity not only linguistically but culturally as well. The signal that drove to this was two-fold - first Russia at the end of last year forbade Sweden and Finland joining NATO, clearly signaling it considers these states as "it's property". Then the war in Ukraine - Bucha and Mariupol - turned the perception of Russia into complete Mordor in a single stroke. It was very easy to replace Bucha and Mariupol with Finnish cities in ones imagination - and we still have people who remember the sound of Russian bombers striking our cities from '40s. Finns in general do not exacerbate political tensions one way or another and are used to a mostly consensus-seeking political process. So not sure what signals you interpreted as "friendly" and what was just "common politeness". The relationship with Russia is a bit conflicted - Finland rose from a dirt poor agrarian state to a fledling industrial state when it was a grand dutchy under a personal union with the Russian czar (so "part of Russia" but also "not part of Russia"). Most of the historical goodwill - if any - was destroyed by the russification attempts starting in late 19th century and were more or less eradicated during the second world war as Stalin tried to conquer Finland. The war in Ukraine has made the Russian state appear twisted, dark, deranged and unpredictable for decades to come. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization
- rzmmm 4y ago
  >Most finns, especially the young generations, feel most affinity towards west in every sense. It's true that most finns feel affinity towards the west, but same can't be said about the USA. Especially the younger generation sees both Russia and US with somewhat strong dislike.
  - wodenokoto 4y ago
gerikson 4y ago
This article (in Finnish) shows which Finnish MPs are against joining NATO. That's not implying they are pro- current Russian government. https://www.hs.fi/politiikka/art-2000008684257.html https://www.hs.fi/politiikka/art-2000008684257.html
- thematrixturtle 4y ago
  For readers not versed in Finnish politics, the only party with a majority opposed is Vasemmistoliitto (Left Alliance), the rebranded former Finnish Communist/Socialist party.
  - tovej 4y ago
    Also important to note that the members of the Left Alliance that oppose NATO are primarily skeptical of NATO, not supportive of Russia.
    - rzmmm 4y ago
      This is a critical detail. The Left Alliance and the Green League parties are perhaps the two most skeptical parties towards Russia in Finland.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - kukkeliskuu 4y ago
    This is not a neutral characterization. They are not communists in the sense that they would oppose capitalism. A real communist party exists as well. They are left of US democrats, and major driver seems to be identity politics.
    - thematrixturtle 4y ago
      The Left Alliance is the successor of SKDL, which started out as a thin disguise for the banned Finnish Communist Party after the Soviets arm-twisted the Finnish government into allowing it. Obviously their politics have been diluted since the early days, but older folk recall their heritage well.
Gravityloss 4y ago
There is this one person. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ano_Turtiainen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ano_Turtiainen Not a lot of material about him written in English though. But he is a member of parliament and has been openly pro Russia recently. He was expelled from his party already earlier and now runs his own party. I don't think people take him seriously.
- doikor 4y ago
  He is basically anti everything mainstream including Russia, US, EU (yes all 3), vaccines, any covid measures, etc while being pro almost any conspiracy theory you have ever heard of. And all of this changes week by week. Basically your standard populist politician turned conspiracy nut.
weberer 4y ago
There are some MPs in the far-left party (and the single MP party VKK) who are against NATO but they're in the minority.
CRConrad 4y ago
> Has Finland significant pro-Russian politicians? Nowadays, only Erkki Tuomioja... [Edit: Fortunately he's old enough to soon be significant only historically.]

nine_zeros 4y ago

Maybe it was just friendliness towards Russian people? This war is entirely political. Most Russians don't seem to want to invade other countries.

golergka 4y ago
> Most Russians don't seem to want to invade other countries. Most Russians that a typical HN user would encounter — English-speaking, educated, probably with skills in demand inside and outside Russia — don't. Typical Russians, on the other hand, are quite openly fascist at this point.
- doikor 4y ago
  Don't mistake of thinking that the educated or political elite in Saint Petersburg or Moscow are not mostly in favor Russian supremacy over Ukraine. A lot of them truly do think that Ukraine is just a part of Russia and killing anyone there who thinks othewise is just fine. A lot of them look back at the Soviet or imperial times with rose tinted glasses and say "this was when Russia was at its best".
emteycz 4y ago
Even the studies that assume a lot of people are lying to stay safe are saying at least 60% of Russians support the war and Putin.
michaelmrose 4y ago
> Most Russians don't seem to want to invade other countries. What are you basing this on? https://www.levada.ru/en/ratings/ https://www.levada.ru/en/ratings/ This seems to show strong support for the Russian government and this analysis seems to suggest that few Russians are concerned about Russians crimes and as many as half are very supportive of horrific violence against people they see as nonhuman. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14623528.2022.2074020 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14623528.2022.2...
- Oreols 4y ago
  Those are polls in a fascist state. People will say what they think they need to say to stay safe. But you're not wrong, lots of people just went full nazi
  - sph 4y ago
    Can we please learn the difference between fascism, nationalism and nazism? Putin nor his supporters haven't gone full nazi. Full fascist, perhaps. Nationalist, definitely. He used the "denazify Ukraine" slogan when Zelenskyy is actually Jewish not because of deep seated racial or religious motivations, but just to get more of the populace to buy his belligerent cause. Putin just cares about Crimea, Sevastopol, and the strategic importance of the Black Sea (oil and military).
    - michaelmrose 4y ago
      What is the difference between the Nazis and Putin's Russia today? A fascist State organized around one man organizing the genocide of an ethnicity to further his geopolitical aims and restore his nation to a position of prominence and prestige in world affairs who destroys not only others but his own people as well. He's just using Ukrainians instead of Jewish folks seems more like an implimentation detail. Even hating them is completely optional. People aren't just using Nazi as a purjorative the regime literally fits a template.
      - watwut 4y ago
        Glad you asked. Nazis ideology was based on strong genetic/biological definition of race. It was all about who your grand-parents were. It believed in struggle for survival for races and whole pyramid of races. Aryans on top (not whites), Jews as main enemies/bottom and dangerous, Slavic people low on hierarchy but not dangerous. It also believed Germans need more "living space" as Germany is too small. The place to colonize was East. They also believed in "survival of fittest" and competition. That influenced the way they build institutions and how they treated sick etc. They liked to have two institutions with same goal and have them compete. Russia is different in all three points. It does not care much about own disabled, but they are not seen as threat the way Germans seen disabled. Russian parents with sick kid dont have to be afraid to go to see doctor for example. > He's just using Ukrainians instead of Jewish folks seems more like an implementation detail. Even hating them is completely optional. Both ideologies are very very different in how they treat subjects, actually. For instance, Ukrainians became subject of genocide after they refused Russia domination - Jews had no such option. Russians claim Ukrainians are Russia by blood and deserve punishment for considering themselves apart. Meanwhile, many many German Jews considered themselves Germans. That is underappreciated point - but a lot of them were German patriots, veterans of WWI, married ethnical Germans and were atheists. Edited to add: Russia is also significantly less totalitarian them Germany was back then. It is autocracy/dictatorship, but it is not nearly as oppressive internally as Nazi Germany was. Timing is different too, its move toward complete lock of press happened only after invasion of Ukraine - contrast with German who did that long before military moves.
formerly_proven 4y ago
1420
- andybak 4y ago
  I had to google it but I think this is a reference to a YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl4R4M9YVfYjjPmILU2Ie1A https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl4R4M9YVfYjjPmILU2Ie1A
pmontra 4y ago
> Most Russians don't seem to want to invade other countries. This is true for basically every people every time in history. People care about food, family, a house, medical care. All is well until some government starts pushing them into a warring state of mind. Examples from the previous generation of European wars, when Italy invented fascism, Germany followed suit ten years later and both countries started to think about land grabs in Europe and Africa. We got WW2 first but only 12 years after the end of it France, Germany, Italy and the Benelux started the process [1] that led to the current EU. All friends again. My bet: without the current leadership and their propaganda very few Russians would think about invading other countries so be ready to reach out to them when it will be all over. What we don't have to do is to start a process like the one that led Germany from the defeat in WW1 to desires of revenge and WW2, or Russia from the defeat in the Cold War to the current attempt to create its empire again. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Community https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Community
- T-zex 4y ago
  Italian and German fascism lasted relatively short period of time. Generation that "invented" it had a chance to change their mind. Russian fascism runs for multiple generations. Russia never was democratic. Russian mentality is to have an aggressive leader ("бьёт - значит любит"). Navalny is perceived as an alternative to Putin, but he supported Crimean annexation and Georgian war. There is no evidence the remedies that worked for Nazi Germany will work for Russia.
  - CRConrad 4y ago
    The de-totalitarianization of the people will have to be all the more thorough.
- pbourke 4y ago
  > What we don't have to do is to start a process like the one that led Germany from the defeat in WW1 to desires of revenge and WW2, or Russia from the defeat in the Cold War to the current attempt to create its empire again. I note, grimly, that your positive example (Germany and Italy post-WW2) was precipitated by the total defeat, occupation and renovation of those two states by the victors of the war. That is not possible in the current situation, where the best case outcome is that Russia retreats to pre-2014 borders with Ukraine.

fsloth 4y ago

The Finnish political system was infiltrated by Russian assets (willing or just useful fools) for decades [0]. Luckily this has abated in the last decades. The people have deep suspicion of the Russian state but no particular animosity towards russian people in general. Most finns, especially the young generations, feel most affinity towards west in every sense. The Finnish language is Finno-Ugric and unrelated to slavic tongues hence there is a huge language gap. Finns don't as a rule undertand russian. The political and judicial system is based on western principles. So Russia in general is a very alien entity not only linguistically but culturally as well. The signal that drove to this was two-fold - first Russia at the end of last year forbade Sweden and Finland joining NATO, clearly signaling it considers these states as "it's property". Then the war in Ukraine - Bucha and Mariupol - turned the perception of Russia into complete Mordor in a single stroke. It was very easy to replace Bucha and Mariupol with Finnish cities in ones imagination - and we still have people who remember the sound of Russian bombers striking our cities from '40s. Finns in general do not exacerbate political tensions one way or another and are used to a mostly consensus-seeking political process. So not sure what signals you interpreted as "friendly" and what was just "common politeness". The relationship with Russia is a bit conflicted - Finland rose from a dirt poor agrarian state to a fledling industrial state when it was a grand dutchy under a personal union with the Russian czar (so "part of Russia" but also "not part of Russia"). Most of the historical goodwill - if any - was destroyed by the russification attempts starting in late 19th century and were more or less eradicated during the second world war as Stalin tried to conquer Finland. The war in Ukraine has made the Russian state appear twisted, dark, deranged and unpredictable for decades to come. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization

rzmmm 4y ago
>Most finns, especially the young generations, feel most affinity towards west in every sense. It's true that most finns feel affinity towards the west, but same can't be said about the USA. Especially the younger generation sees both Russia and US with somewhat strong dislike.
- wodenokoto 4y ago

gerikson 4y ago

This article (in Finnish) shows which Finnish MPs are against joining NATO. That's not implying they are pro- current Russian government. https://www.hs.fi/politiikka/art-2000008684257.html https://www.hs.fi/politiikka/art-2000008684257.html

thematrixturtle 4y ago
For readers not versed in Finnish politics, the only party with a majority opposed is Vasemmistoliitto (Left Alliance), the rebranded former Finnish Communist/Socialist party.
- tovej 4y ago
  Also important to note that the members of the Left Alliance that oppose NATO are primarily skeptical of NATO, not supportive of Russia.
  - rzmmm 4y ago
    This is a critical detail. The Left Alliance and the Green League parties are perhaps the two most skeptical parties towards Russia in Finland.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- kukkeliskuu 4y ago
  This is not a neutral characterization. They are not communists in the sense that they would oppose capitalism. A real communist party exists as well. They are left of US democrats, and major driver seems to be identity politics.
  - thematrixturtle 4y ago
    The Left Alliance is the successor of SKDL, which started out as a thin disguise for the banned Finnish Communist Party after the Soviets arm-twisted the Finnish government into allowing it. Obviously their politics have been diluted since the early days, but older folk recall their heritage well.

Gravityloss 4y ago

There is this one person. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ano_Turtiainen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ano_Turtiainen Not a lot of material about him written in English though. But he is a member of parliament and has been openly pro Russia recently. He was expelled from his party already earlier and now runs his own party. I don't think people take him seriously.

doikor 4y ago
He is basically anti everything mainstream including Russia, US, EU (yes all 3), vaccines, any covid measures, etc while being pro almost any conspiracy theory you have ever heard of. And all of this changes week by week. Basically your standard populist politician turned conspiracy nut.

weberer 4y ago

There are some MPs in the far-left party (and the single MP party VKK) who are against NATO but they're in the minority.

CRConrad 4y ago

> Has Finland significant pro-Russian politicians? Nowadays, only Erkki Tuomioja... [Edit: Fortunately he's old enough to soon be significant only historically.]