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No. These junk "remedies" like acupuncture absolutely have risks. You can get infections from acupuncture. Your acupuncture "provider" could easily infect you w

No. These junk "remedies" like acupuncture absolutely have risks. You can get infections from acupuncture. Your acupuncture "provider" could easily infect you with bloodborne diseases. People have even been documented to have died from acupuncture https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2951167/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2951167/ The benefits are zero. Potentially living with a chronic disease like Hepatitis C because of a lazy provider that reuses a needle or contaminates it in some way, is a serious risk. There's also the fact that by engaging in these activities you perpetuate junk science, just like Q anon people, just like climate change deniers, it's all the same insanity.

KptMarchewa 4y ago
Agreed. On top of that, opportunity cost is a thing. If you pursue completely ineffective therapy - and spend time figuring out if your local acupuncture parlor uses dirty needles - you waste time and energy that would be spend pursuing worthwhile treatment.
vorpalhex 4y ago
Let me try again, maybe with more caps. > We are pretty sure acupuncture, DONE CORRECTLY, won't cause any harm Yes, if you get stabbed with a dirty needle, you might get a disease. That's true for acupuncture, a tattoo shop, and even a vaccine. Don't get stabbed with dirty needles! I fully suggest not getting stabbed with dirty needles. Bad. Avoid. 0/10. > The benefits are zero https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3982837/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3982837/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5984198/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5984198/ It's probably about as effective as placebo? (Maybe?) That isn't zero, that's placebo - and that is an important difference > you perpetuate junk science, You're just wrong. This isn't even just a "you might have a different opinion". The absolute best science we have, the entirety of realms of research, is "well, it's probably placebo and maybe it's kind of an expensive placebo". The most scientific answer you can give is "we should do more studies and ask more questions", and it's part of why the medical industry has shifted from "Don't do acupuncture" to "Well, it probably won't do much for you, but sure if you like it, that seems fine".
- xvedejas 4y ago
  One of the ways I avoid getting stabbed with a dirty needle is based on background rates. I think I'm safe in sticking with my priors that acupuncture clinics are held to less of a standard than vaccines are. Hypodermic needles necessarily come in sanitized packages, after all. There's more to science than just asking questions and collecting data though, there's also developing models. Without good models, you can't gain much insight from data, and in fact you'll sometimes gain incorrect understandings. If there's no supported mechanism for how acupuncture works, it's really not a good sign, and it seems dishonest to think it's at all in the same realm of safety as something like vaccines which do have known mechanisms of action. I think back to how much "data" we had in the 50s that tobacco was harmless. Is it ever a good idea to go for something so invasive to the body as needles without a strong reason, just because the dangers aren't readily apparent? Medicine passes the necessity bar, placebo does not.
  - azeirah 4y ago
    Dunno, I had some acupuncture sessions as recommended by my doctor. The accupuncturist's needles were each individually packed, he washes his hands thoroughly, then puts on gloves as well. Every needle gets thrown away immediately after use. Not sure how any of that is potentially unhygienic other than the room itself possibly being slightly dirty? (it was clearly well cleaned, but obviously not to surgical standards... why should it?)
  - vorpalhex 4y ago
    > If there's no supported mechanism for how acupuncture works, it's really not a good sign Acupuncture works as well as sham acupuncture (inserting needles at non-acupuncture locations). Which suggests to me that acupuncture works on the same basic principle that your doctor giving you sugar pills with a fancy name and strict instructions to take one every four hours with a glass of water works. > I think back to how much "data" we had in the 50s that tobacco was harmless. We had pretty good evidence it was bad for you, especially during pregnancy. This is maybe a better example for talking about peer review and conflicts of interest - which is still a real problem. We can never say "is dangerous" or "is not dangerous". What we can say is X esposure leads to Y harm. Water in sufficient quantities will kill you. Acupuncture, in a sterile environment, is pretty safe. We also know that skin deep needle penetration is pretty safe given that lots of people get tattoos. It still requires hygiene, but it is a safe activity. I'm totally sympathetic to "we should be doing health inspections of acupuncture, like we do tattoo shops". I think some areas already do this. It's probably a good idea.

KptMarchewa 4y ago

Agreed. On top of that, opportunity cost is a thing. If you pursue completely ineffective therapy - and spend time figuring out if your local acupuncture parlor uses dirty needles - you waste time and energy that would be spend pursuing worthwhile treatment.

vorpalhex 4y ago

Let me try again, maybe with more caps. > We are pretty sure acupuncture, DONE CORRECTLY, won't cause any harm Yes, if you get stabbed with a dirty needle, you might get a disease. That's true for acupuncture, a tattoo shop, and even a vaccine. Don't get stabbed with dirty needles! I fully suggest not getting stabbed with dirty needles. Bad. Avoid. 0/10. > The benefits are zero https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3982837/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3982837/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5984198/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5984198/ It's probably about as effective as placebo? (Maybe?) That isn't zero, that's placebo - and that is an important difference > you perpetuate junk science, You're just wrong. This isn't even just a "you might have a different opinion". The absolute best science we have, the entirety of realms of research, is "well, it's probably placebo and maybe it's kind of an expensive placebo". The most scientific answer you can give is "we should do more studies and ask more questions", and it's part of why the medical industry has shifted from "Don't do acupuncture" to "Well, it probably won't do much for you, but sure if you like it, that seems fine".

xvedejas 4y ago
One of the ways I avoid getting stabbed with a dirty needle is based on background rates. I think I'm safe in sticking with my priors that acupuncture clinics are held to less of a standard than vaccines are. Hypodermic needles necessarily come in sanitized packages, after all. There's more to science than just asking questions and collecting data though, there's also developing models. Without good models, you can't gain much insight from data, and in fact you'll sometimes gain incorrect understandings. If there's no supported mechanism for how acupuncture works, it's really not a good sign, and it seems dishonest to think it's at all in the same realm of safety as something like vaccines which do have known mechanisms of action. I think back to how much "data" we had in the 50s that tobacco was harmless. Is it ever a good idea to go for something so invasive to the body as needles without a strong reason, just because the dangers aren't readily apparent? Medicine passes the necessity bar, placebo does not.
- azeirah 4y ago
  Dunno, I had some acupuncture sessions as recommended by my doctor. The accupuncturist's needles were each individually packed, he washes his hands thoroughly, then puts on gloves as well. Every needle gets thrown away immediately after use. Not sure how any of that is potentially unhygienic other than the room itself possibly being slightly dirty? (it was clearly well cleaned, but obviously not to surgical standards... why should it?)
- vorpalhex 4y ago
  > If there's no supported mechanism for how acupuncture works, it's really not a good sign Acupuncture works as well as sham acupuncture (inserting needles at non-acupuncture locations). Which suggests to me that acupuncture works on the same basic principle that your doctor giving you sugar pills with a fancy name and strict instructions to take one every four hours with a glass of water works. > I think back to how much "data" we had in the 50s that tobacco was harmless. We had pretty good evidence it was bad for you, especially during pregnancy. This is maybe a better example for talking about peer review and conflicts of interest - which is still a real problem. We can never say "is dangerous" or "is not dangerous". What we can say is X esposure leads to Y harm. Water in sufficient quantities will kill you. Acupuncture, in a sterile environment, is pretty safe. We also know that skin deep needle penetration is pretty safe given that lots of people get tattoos. It still requires hygiene, but it is a safe activity. I'm totally sympathetic to "we should be doing health inspections of acupuncture, like we do tattoo shops". I think some areas already do this. It's probably a good idea.