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> Wat. Cities are not parties that get diluted with lame people. If you fill a party past it’s optimal capacity, is the same kind of party? Are you still likel

> Wat. Cities are not parties that get diluted with lame people. If you fill a party past it’s optimal capacity, is the same kind of party? Are you still likely to enjoy being there? Why is a city any different? There are absolutely problems that only emerge with scale, and scale non-linearly with population and density. > London and Paris grew large and rich in comparison to their respective countries. “Large and rich” aren’t the values that most/many people want their communities to optimize for.

pm90 4y ago
> “Large and rich” aren’t the values that most/many people want their communities to optimize for. Maybe. But for the high growth job generating urban centers in todays US that’s certainly the case.
Ericson2314 4y ago
> optimal capacity Cities to do not have fixed capacity. > There are absolutely problems that only emerge with scale, and scale non-linearly with population and density. The biggest thing that doesn't scale is private car usage. But private car usage is terrible. I have not heard of extant cities hitting fundamental scaling constraints in and other way. > “Large and rich” aren’t the values that most/many people want their communities to optimize for. Then why aren't rents lower?
- teakettle42 4y ago
  > Cities to do not have fixed capacity. That doesn’t mean they don’t have optimal capacities. The metrics you’re optimizing for are not necessarily high density and high population — like a dinner party, which would be impossible to scale and would ruin the experience if you tried. > I have not heard of extant cities hitting fundamental scaling constraints in and other way. You’re ignoring all other negatives to living in a city and high population density. Crime. No need for community involvement; everything is provided by paid municipal services. Not knowing your neighbors. Not having space to breath, or to have a woodshop, or to garden. The list is endless. You might not care about optimizing for those properties, but lots of other people do. > Then why aren't rents lower? They are in plenty of places, you just don’t want to live there.
  - Ericson2314 4y ago
    > That doesn’t mean they don’t have optimal capacities. > The metrics you’re optimizing for are not necessarily high density and high population — like a dinner party, which would be impossible to scale and would ruin the experience if you tried. You continue to crudely reason by analogy without mentioning what these scaling limits might be. > You’re ignoring all other negatives to living in a city and high population density. > Crime. What about cities are intrinsically more crime ridden? > No need for community involvement; What? > everything is provided by paid municipal services. False, even if I wish it were :P > Not knowing your neighbors. Again not intrinsic at all > Not having space to breath, or to have a woodshop, or to garden. You are confusing floor area per capita vs land area pre capita. Even gardens can be in boxes on balconies, see New Orleans. > The list is endless. You might not care about optimizing for those properties, but lots of other people do. > > Then why aren't rents lower? > They are in plenty of places, you just don’t want to live there. Hey buddy, if "weird city apologists" like me are not representative, then we can't bid up the the rent. Clearly a lot of people are trying to live in the major cities or they wouldn't be as high. ------ This is one of the worst comments I've ever responded to on HN. All vague NIMBY vibes, no actual reasoning whatsoever. Get that shit out of here.
    - teakettle42 4y ago
      > What about cities are intrinsically more crime ridden? Don’t know, but the stats are quite clear. Crime per capita correlates strongly with population density. >> No need for community involvement; > What? Community involvement. I understand this is likely a totally foreign concept to you, but where I live, we rely almost entirely on volunteerism and community support to take care of each other. That includes everything from municipal services like our volunteer fire department, to basic day-to-day support for others in our community. It’s a rewarding and engaging way to live, and nothing comparable exists in a dense city; I spent 20 years living in SF and NYC before I lived here. >> Not knowing your neighbors. > Again not intrinsic at all Of course it is. With 20k+ people per square mile, you can’t know your neighbors. > You are confusing floor area per capita vs land area pre capita. Even gardens can be in boxes on balconies, see New Orleans. Don’t piss on me and call it rain. That’s not the same and you know it very well. > Hey buddy, if "weird city apologists" like me are not representative, then we can't bid up the the rent. A lot of people packing themselves into a sardine can might only see the can and think that’s the limit of the universe. That doesn’t make it true, or make you representative of the rest of us out here. > This is one of the worst comments I've ever responded to on HN. All vague NIMBY vibes, no actual reasoning whatsoever. Get that shit out of here. Given that you took things in this direction, allow me to respond in kind. Grow up, learn about the world outside your tiny immature bubble, and don’t come back until you actually have something useful to share with the rest of us.

pm90 4y ago

> “Large and rich” aren’t the values that most/many people want their communities to optimize for. Maybe. But for the high growth job generating urban centers in todays US that’s certainly the case.

Ericson2314 4y ago

> optimal capacity Cities to do not have fixed capacity. > There are absolutely problems that only emerge with scale, and scale non-linearly with population and density. The biggest thing that doesn't scale is private car usage. But private car usage is terrible. I have not heard of extant cities hitting fundamental scaling constraints in and other way. > “Large and rich” aren’t the values that most/many people want their communities to optimize for. Then why aren't rents lower?

teakettle42 4y ago
> Cities to do not have fixed capacity. That doesn’t mean they don’t have optimal capacities. The metrics you’re optimizing for are not necessarily high density and high population — like a dinner party, which would be impossible to scale and would ruin the experience if you tried. > I have not heard of extant cities hitting fundamental scaling constraints in and other way. You’re ignoring all other negatives to living in a city and high population density. Crime. No need for community involvement; everything is provided by paid municipal services. Not knowing your neighbors. Not having space to breath, or to have a woodshop, or to garden. The list is endless. You might not care about optimizing for those properties, but lots of other people do. > Then why aren't rents lower? They are in plenty of places, you just don’t want to live there.
- Ericson2314 4y ago
  > That doesn’t mean they don’t have optimal capacities. > The metrics you’re optimizing for are not necessarily high density and high population — like a dinner party, which would be impossible to scale and would ruin the experience if you tried. You continue to crudely reason by analogy without mentioning what these scaling limits might be. > You’re ignoring all other negatives to living in a city and high population density. > Crime. What about cities are intrinsically more crime ridden? > No need for community involvement; What? > everything is provided by paid municipal services. False, even if I wish it were :P > Not knowing your neighbors. Again not intrinsic at all > Not having space to breath, or to have a woodshop, or to garden. You are confusing floor area per capita vs land area pre capita. Even gardens can be in boxes on balconies, see New Orleans. > The list is endless. You might not care about optimizing for those properties, but lots of other people do. > > Then why aren't rents lower? > They are in plenty of places, you just don’t want to live there. Hey buddy, if "weird city apologists" like me are not representative, then we can't bid up the the rent. Clearly a lot of people are trying to live in the major cities or they wouldn't be as high. ------ This is one of the worst comments I've ever responded to on HN. All vague NIMBY vibes, no actual reasoning whatsoever. Get that shit out of here.
  - teakettle42 4y ago
    > What about cities are intrinsically more crime ridden? Don’t know, but the stats are quite clear. Crime per capita correlates strongly with population density. >> No need for community involvement; > What? Community involvement. I understand this is likely a totally foreign concept to you, but where I live, we rely almost entirely on volunteerism and community support to take care of each other. That includes everything from municipal services like our volunteer fire department, to basic day-to-day support for others in our community. It’s a rewarding and engaging way to live, and nothing comparable exists in a dense city; I spent 20 years living in SF and NYC before I lived here. >> Not knowing your neighbors. > Again not intrinsic at all Of course it is. With 20k+ people per square mile, you can’t know your neighbors. > You are confusing floor area per capita vs land area pre capita. Even gardens can be in boxes on balconies, see New Orleans. Don’t piss on me and call it rain. That’s not the same and you know it very well. > Hey buddy, if "weird city apologists" like me are not representative, then we can't bid up the the rent. A lot of people packing themselves into a sardine can might only see the can and think that’s the limit of the universe. That doesn’t make it true, or make you representative of the rest of us out here. > This is one of the worst comments I've ever responded to on HN. All vague NIMBY vibes, no actual reasoning whatsoever. Get that shit out of here. Given that you took things in this direction, allow me to respond in kind. Grow up, learn about the world outside your tiny immature bubble, and don’t come back until you actually have something useful to share with the rest of us.