8 ms·

Mark Rippetoe swears by a remedy he developed for elbow tendonitis, based on pin firing. Pin firing is an old treatment for certain injuries to a horse's leg, w

Mark Rippetoe swears by a remedy he developed for elbow tendonitis, based on pin firing. Pin firing is an old treatment for certain injuries to a horse's leg, whereby inflammation is intentionally exacerbated using a hot poker. The idea being that this increased inflammatory response causes the original injury to heal. His remedy for elbow tendonitis basically involves a few sessions of doing chin ups until your elbow pain is unbearable. And then keep going. Many low-rep sets over and over. The idea is that this will increase inflammation, causing your body to heal the original injury along with the inflammation. He claims this healed his own elbow tendonitis and has worked for countless others. I follow Rip's strength training program. However I can't say I'd ever give this a try and I'm not sure there's any scientific evidence that it works. Just thought it was pretty interesting, even if it's just bogus. I have no idea! https://startingstrength.com/training/elbow-tendonitis-how-it-occurs-and-what-to-do-about-it https://startingstrength.com/training/elbow-tendonitis-how-i... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pin_firing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pin_firing (an article on his website) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1frSvu8KyE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1frSvu8KyE (he talks about it in this podcast)

vrc 4y ago
In my experience, I’ve used low weight high rep reverse EZ bar curls to treat/improve elbow tendinitis. I’d never try to work high effort through the pain, but using the affected area and getting a pump made a big difference in how quickly I healed.
bigDinosaur 4y ago
It could easily be true, but that's definitely something I'd only try as a last resort until there's some good experimental evidence (which will probably only happen if enough people self-experiment for there to be an obvious benefit).
pazimzadeh 4y ago
Sometimes I have aphthous ulcers that absolutely nothing will treat and the only thing that seems to reliably work is if I press on it so hard that it bleeds (with a Q tip - very painful). After that, the ulcer seems to get better within 1-2 days however the other ones remain. Now that I think about it I wonder if it still works if the area is numbed first.
happythebob 4y ago
I workout through tendinitis after a short break, but the priority is about form and lower weight.
nanomonkey 4y ago
I've always believed that this was the science behind acupuncture. You're deliberately reminding the body of old scar tissue and blocked lymphs that the body has forgotten about. This causes localized inflammation and the bodies own response to go back in and clear out tissue or built up crap. I haven't heard anyone else describe it that way but it makes sense to me. Wonder if this would be better than applying repetitive stress injuries to an existing problem.
- mordechai9000 4y ago
  Modern, Western physical therapists are using something similar to acupuncture called dry needling. They did it for my wife's torn rotator cuff. They said it causes the muscle to return to a normal state, after it's been trying to compensate for the injury. Or at least that's the understanding she got from their explanation. Since they are still trying to treat the injury, I'm not sure causing the muscle to reset would be helpful.
  - gonzo41 4y ago
    The main difference is that in the western use of needles they don't really follow paths on the body, you just work over an area to create the spasms that result in a knot loosening etc.
    - Broken_Hippo 4y ago
      But like acupuncture, there isn't proof for dry needling working better than a placebo. Studies that are there are, well, bad and looks to be on-par with a placebo. Which means that you get risks without medical benefit. Might as well get a massage, which won't involve someone putting needles in your skin.
  - blenderdt 4y ago
    As far as I know dry needling causes the muscles to contract. This squeezes the acids out of the muscles causing a better blood flow afterwards. So as far as I know this is almost the same as a massage but more localized. But as with a massage, if the cause of the knot in the muscle it not taken away the effect will only be temporarily (couple of days maybe).
ledauphin 4y ago
this sounds somewhat similar to the only treatment that works for me when i get poison ivy: very hot water right up to the edge of what i can stand. The overload dramatically reduces the itching for several hours.
- tastysandwich 4y ago
  Wow! We don't have poison ivy in Australia, but apparently this works for things like rashes, mosquito bites, etc. I'd never heard of it before. I can't wait to get a rash or something so I can try this. Thanks!
  - infecto 4y ago
    They even make electric pens for bites. The tip of the pen heats up when you put it on a bite and the itch is gone.
- DantesKite 4y ago
  I wonder if it's because at high temperatures, you're basically denaturing the proteins that cause the allergic reaction.
DantesKite 4y ago
I just used the TheraBand Flex bar. It's a lot more efficient and I like the explanation for how it works. Basically through eccentric motion, it targets and strengthens the ligaments/tendons by "stretching" them so they're not so tense. I experienced elbow pain after doing a lot of deadlifts and I assume my tendons couldn't bear the weight, since they take longer to strengthen than muscle tissue. Fixed it after ~2 weeks of use. Highly recommend. amazon.com/TheraBand-Tendonitis-Resistance-Tendinitis-Intermediate/dp/B00066D6K4/ref=asc_df_B00066D6K4/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=198109692418&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6240534091611235770&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9031499&hvtargid=pla-404191336687&th=1
- webgoat 4y ago
  Second this. I believe the real benefit comes from being able to exercise the extensors instead of the flexors, which helps with remedying an imbalance in tendon strength that leads to tendonitis.
- sethammons 4y ago
  Had Golfer's Elbow and acupuncture did not work - physical therapy with these flexbars worked. Conversely, my wife's debilitating ankle injury was going nowhere with physical therapy and after a single trip to a local acupuncturist she could walk pain free.
- JeremyNT 4y ago
  I have another anecdote about this product to share... A couple of years ago, I got golfer's elbow from doing high volume chin-ups (supinated pull-ups). I'm at an age where this kind of thing is common (I've heard of it referred to as "middle age pull-up syndrome"). I tried to ignore it and work through it, but it got worse, and I eventually went to therapy where they recommended the Flex bar. It took more than a few weeks, but eventually it completely resolved the pain. For me at least, it did the job, and it's a lot cheaper than a single visit to the therapist (even if you end up buying multiple "levels" of it). Nowadays I do my pull-ups on gymnast rings, so these creaky old elbow joints can move freely rather than being stressed by a fixed hand position.
gamblor956 4y ago
I've found the same to be true for running: if I continue running (or more accurately, limping) on a sprain, and massage the area when I get back home, the sprain usually heals within a few hours and I can run again the next day as if nothing happened. OTOH, if I stop running, and either ice the injury or take painkillers, it takes almost a week for the sprain to heal.
__turbobrew__ 4y ago
This kind of rhymes with John Sarno’s work on back pain. The prescription for many pain ailments is to square away your mental health and work through the pain.
- everdrive 4y ago
  But doesn't he explicitly rest his entire theory on Freudian psychology being specifically correct?
DoreenMichele 4y ago
I've not gotten confirmation, but my impression is the piece says that a temporary increase in inflammation due to white blood cells activity prevents chronic pain. So that sounds to me like some kind of actual healing activity. Hot PokerStars potentially kill infection. Heat is a well known means to help kill infection. Exercise increases the rate at which lymph is returned to the circulatory system from the tissues. That's how the body takes out the trash. Inflammation is poorly understood and I don't like these hand wavy hypotheses.
manmal 4y ago
I think that's basically hormesis? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormesis
drakonka 4y ago
I don't think I'd ever try anything as extreme as that, but inducing mild inflammation is used in various less potentially crippling situations as well. One example is microneedling of the skin. Inducing damage to the skin through microneedling has been shown [0] to induce a healing response that can promote collagen production. This (sometimes in combination with platelet rich plasma during treatment) is often used for things like scar treatment, skin conditioning, sun spot reduction, and fine line treatment. [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28690124/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28690124/
lsllc 4y ago
See "Prolotherapy": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prolotherapy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prolotherapy "The concept of creating irritation or injury to stimulate healing has been recorded as early as Roman times when hot needles were poked into the shoulders of injured gladiators" Nowadays they (thankfully!) use a mix of Lidocaine/Dextrose but the key is to NOT take ANY anti-inflammatories to allow the body to react & repair itself.
borroka 4y ago
This is what has been done historically (and I think still today) to "treat" Achilles tendinosis, which is a surgical technique called scarification. The surgeon makes small cuts in the tendon to promote inflammation and blood flow and thus increase the speed of tendon repair. Tendon injuries tend to become chronic because of poor blood flow to the tissue. I had a similar surgery 14 years ago (part of the heel bone was sawed off and the tendon was "scarred"), followed by 2 weeks on crutches. I was coming from more than 2 years of terrible pain in my right Achilles. Three months after the surgery, performed arthroscopically, I ran a 10K. I never had any problems or pain after surgery. Intriguingly, being an eternal explorer of alternative methods, I had tried using a number of remedies/procedures to heal my Achilles (acupuncture, "shock waves," electrostimulation). I was an athlete and it was all under medical supervision. Virtually nothing worked except cortisone injections, which only mask the pain for a few weeks. But what did work, albeit for a few hours, was Alpha-stim ("an electrotherapy device that relieves post-traumatic, acute and chronic pain through painless electrical stimulation"). I applied the microcurrents with the stick and pads provided (Alpha-stim is mostly used transcranially) and I remember the pain that was torturing me disappeared for a few hours. I went out for a run and felt nothing, it felt miraculous. I feel that electro-medicine has been understudied and under applied.

vrc 4y ago

In my experience, I’ve used low weight high rep reverse EZ bar curls to treat/improve elbow tendinitis. I’d never try to work high effort through the pain, but using the affected area and getting a pump made a big difference in how quickly I healed.

bigDinosaur 4y ago

It could easily be true, but that's definitely something I'd only try as a last resort until there's some good experimental evidence (which will probably only happen if enough people self-experiment for there to be an obvious benefit).

pazimzadeh 4y ago

Sometimes I have aphthous ulcers that absolutely nothing will treat and the only thing that seems to reliably work is if I press on it so hard that it bleeds (with a Q tip - very painful). After that, the ulcer seems to get better within 1-2 days however the other ones remain. Now that I think about it I wonder if it still works if the area is numbed first.

happythebob 4y ago

I workout through tendinitis after a short break, but the priority is about form and lower weight.

nanomonkey 4y ago

I've always believed that this was the science behind acupuncture. You're deliberately reminding the body of old scar tissue and blocked lymphs that the body has forgotten about. This causes localized inflammation and the bodies own response to go back in and clear out tissue or built up crap. I haven't heard anyone else describe it that way but it makes sense to me. Wonder if this would be better than applying repetitive stress injuries to an existing problem.

mordechai9000 4y ago
Modern, Western physical therapists are using something similar to acupuncture called dry needling. They did it for my wife's torn rotator cuff. They said it causes the muscle to return to a normal state, after it's been trying to compensate for the injury. Or at least that's the understanding she got from their explanation. Since they are still trying to treat the injury, I'm not sure causing the muscle to reset would be helpful.
- gonzo41 4y ago
  The main difference is that in the western use of needles they don't really follow paths on the body, you just work over an area to create the spasms that result in a knot loosening etc.
  - Broken_Hippo 4y ago
    But like acupuncture, there isn't proof for dry needling working better than a placebo. Studies that are there are, well, bad and looks to be on-par with a placebo. Which means that you get risks without medical benefit. Might as well get a massage, which won't involve someone putting needles in your skin.
- blenderdt 4y ago
  As far as I know dry needling causes the muscles to contract. This squeezes the acids out of the muscles causing a better blood flow afterwards. So as far as I know this is almost the same as a massage but more localized. But as with a massage, if the cause of the knot in the muscle it not taken away the effect will only be temporarily (couple of days maybe).

ledauphin 4y ago

this sounds somewhat similar to the only treatment that works for me when i get poison ivy: very hot water right up to the edge of what i can stand. The overload dramatically reduces the itching for several hours.

tastysandwich 4y ago
Wow! We don't have poison ivy in Australia, but apparently this works for things like rashes, mosquito bites, etc. I'd never heard of it before. I can't wait to get a rash or something so I can try this. Thanks!
- infecto 4y ago
  They even make electric pens for bites. The tip of the pen heats up when you put it on a bite and the itch is gone.
DantesKite 4y ago
I wonder if it's because at high temperatures, you're basically denaturing the proteins that cause the allergic reaction.

DantesKite 4y ago

I just used the TheraBand Flex bar. It's a lot more efficient and I like the explanation for how it works. Basically through eccentric motion, it targets and strengthens the ligaments/tendons by "stretching" them so they're not so tense. I experienced elbow pain after doing a lot of deadlifts and I assume my tendons couldn't bear the weight, since they take longer to strengthen than muscle tissue. Fixed it after ~2 weeks of use. Highly recommend. amazon.com/TheraBand-Tendonitis-Resistance-Tendinitis-Intermediate/dp/B00066D6K4/ref=asc_df_B00066D6K4/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=198109692418&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6240534091611235770&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9031499&hvtargid=pla-404191336687&th=1

webgoat 4y ago
Second this. I believe the real benefit comes from being able to exercise the extensors instead of the flexors, which helps with remedying an imbalance in tendon strength that leads to tendonitis.
sethammons 4y ago
Had Golfer's Elbow and acupuncture did not work - physical therapy with these flexbars worked. Conversely, my wife's debilitating ankle injury was going nowhere with physical therapy and after a single trip to a local acupuncturist she could walk pain free.
JeremyNT 4y ago
I have another anecdote about this product to share... A couple of years ago, I got golfer's elbow from doing high volume chin-ups (supinated pull-ups). I'm at an age where this kind of thing is common (I've heard of it referred to as "middle age pull-up syndrome"). I tried to ignore it and work through it, but it got worse, and I eventually went to therapy where they recommended the Flex bar. It took more than a few weeks, but eventually it completely resolved the pain. For me at least, it did the job, and it's a lot cheaper than a single visit to the therapist (even if you end up buying multiple "levels" of it). Nowadays I do my pull-ups on gymnast rings, so these creaky old elbow joints can move freely rather than being stressed by a fixed hand position.

gamblor956 4y ago

I've found the same to be true for running: if I continue running (or more accurately, limping) on a sprain, and massage the area when I get back home, the sprain usually heals within a few hours and I can run again the next day as if nothing happened. OTOH, if I stop running, and either ice the injury or take painkillers, it takes almost a week for the sprain to heal.

__turbobrew__ 4y ago

This kind of rhymes with John Sarno’s work on back pain. The prescription for many pain ailments is to square away your mental health and work through the pain.

everdrive 4y ago
But doesn't he explicitly rest his entire theory on Freudian psychology being specifically correct?

DoreenMichele 4y ago

I've not gotten confirmation, but my impression is the piece says that a temporary increase in inflammation due to white blood cells activity prevents chronic pain. So that sounds to me like some kind of actual healing activity. Hot PokerStars potentially kill infection. Heat is a well known means to help kill infection. Exercise increases the rate at which lymph is returned to the circulatory system from the tissues. That's how the body takes out the trash. Inflammation is poorly understood and I don't like these hand wavy hypotheses.

manmal 4y ago

I think that's basically hormesis? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormesis

drakonka 4y ago

I don't think I'd ever try anything as extreme as that, but inducing mild inflammation is used in various less potentially crippling situations as well. One example is microneedling of the skin. Inducing damage to the skin through microneedling has been shown [0] to induce a healing response that can promote collagen production. This (sometimes in combination with platelet rich plasma during treatment) is often used for things like scar treatment, skin conditioning, sun spot reduction, and fine line treatment. [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28690124/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28690124/

lsllc 4y ago

See "Prolotherapy": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prolotherapy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prolotherapy "The concept of creating irritation or injury to stimulate healing has been recorded as early as Roman times when hot needles were poked into the shoulders of injured gladiators" Nowadays they (thankfully!) use a mix of Lidocaine/Dextrose but the key is to NOT take ANY anti-inflammatories to allow the body to react & repair itself.

borroka 4y ago

This is what has been done historically (and I think still today) to "treat" Achilles tendinosis, which is a surgical technique called scarification. The surgeon makes small cuts in the tendon to promote inflammation and blood flow and thus increase the speed of tendon repair. Tendon injuries tend to become chronic because of poor blood flow to the tissue. I had a similar surgery 14 years ago (part of the heel bone was sawed off and the tendon was "scarred"), followed by 2 weeks on crutches. I was coming from more than 2 years of terrible pain in my right Achilles. Three months after the surgery, performed arthroscopically, I ran a 10K. I never had any problems or pain after surgery. Intriguingly, being an eternal explorer of alternative methods, I had tried using a number of remedies/procedures to heal my Achilles (acupuncture, "shock waves," electrostimulation). I was an athlete and it was all under medical supervision. Virtually nothing worked except cortisone injections, which only mask the pain for a few weeks. But what did work, albeit for a few hours, was Alpha-stim ("an electrotherapy device that relieves post-traumatic, acute and chronic pain through painless electrical stimulation"). I applied the microcurrents with the stick and pads provided (Alpha-stim is mostly used transcranially) and I remember the pain that was torturing me disappeared for a few hours. I went out for a run and felt nothing, it felt miraculous. I feel that electro-medicine has been understudied and under applied.