11 ms·

Acute inflammatory response via neutrophil protects against chronic pain

157 points by jqgatsby 4y ago

amai 4y ago
“In rodents, anti-inflammatory treatments prolonged pain duration, and the effect was abolished by neutrophil administration.” What does that mean for the therapy of humans? How can we administer neutrophils in humans to fight chronic pain?
- amai 4y ago
  “Depletion of neutrophils delayed resolution of pain in mice, whereas peripheral injection of neutrophils themselves, or S100A8/A9 proteins normally released by neutrophils, prevented the development of long-lasting pain induced by an anti-inflammatory drug.”
mateo1 4y ago
Rather unsurprisingly there's a reason inflammation as a process exists.
msla 4y ago
And not blocking inflammation can kill you. https://www.cancertherapyadvisor.com/home/news/conference-coverage/american-society-of-hematology-ash/ash-2021/ash-2021-car-t-in-depth/anakinra-prevent-severe-crs-icans-car-t-cell-therapy/ https://www.cancertherapyadvisor.com/home/news/conference-co... CAR T-cell therapy is for refractory or relapsed lymphomas. One of its side-effects is cytokine release syndrome (CRS), an inflammatory response which, in its most severe grade, is fatal. Anakinra, used for rheumatoid arthritis among other things, greatly reduces the severity of CRS in poor yahoos like me receiving CAR T-cell therapy, turning what could be a rocketship ride to Hell into what will more likely be a rather uncomfortable United flight to Newark.
- a1445c8b 4y ago
  We probably need to qualify your claim with this phrase taken from the same quote: > in its most severe grade I will hazard a guess that most inflammation is not severe but our tolerance for it has diminished due, in part, to the prevalence of anti-inflammatory drugs.
- teeray 4y ago
  I think like many things in life, the answer lies somewhere in between. You want inflammation—-just enough, not too much.
- bawolff 4y ago
  In other words, it is like literally every other bodily process in existence.
- colechristensen 4y ago
  If a treatment can't seriously harm you when overdone, it probably isn't doing anything at all (because it's probably doing nothing).
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Terry_Roll 4y ago
Blocking the Neutrophil trash-can part of the immune system doesnt seem a good idea. Stay off your sugar and do a bit of intermittent fasting. Herbert Shelton might have been onto something you know. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrophil#Structure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrophil#Structure "In 1973, Sanchez et al. found that the capacity of neutrophils to engulf bacteria is reduced when simple sugars like glucose, fructose as well as sucrose, honey and orange juice were ingested, while the ingestion of starches had no effect. Fasting, on the other hand, strengthened the neutrophils' phagocytic capacity to engulf bacteria. It was concluded that the function, and not the number, of phagocytes in engulfing bacteria was altered by the ingestion of sugars."
NoPicklez 4y ago
I could be barking up the wrong tree, but there is a podcast I listen to called Trainerroad (for all you cyclists) and they did a special over a year ago on recovery. They spoke very in-depth and brought experts in studying recovery (in the context of sport). One of the interesting topics was that during recovery from exercise or an acute injury, your body's natural response to repair is through inflammation (not surprisingly). But that reducing or trying to block inflammation inhibits your body's ability to repair and build itself, leading to much slower recovery. All in all, it seems there is a balance between reducing inflammation to prevent it from either killing you or causing pain vs reducing it to the point that it prevents your body's natural build and repair processes.
tastysandwich 4y ago
Mark Rippetoe swears by a remedy he developed for elbow tendonitis, based on pin firing. Pin firing is an old treatment for certain injuries to a horse's leg, whereby inflammation is intentionally exacerbated using a hot poker. The idea being that this increased inflammatory response causes the original injury to heal. His remedy for elbow tendonitis basically involves a few sessions of doing chin ups until your elbow pain is unbearable. And then keep going. Many low-rep sets over and over. The idea is that this will increase inflammation, causing your body to heal the original injury along with the inflammation. He claims this healed his own elbow tendonitis and has worked for countless others. I follow Rip's strength training program. However I can't say I'd ever give this a try and I'm not sure there's any scientific evidence that it works. Just thought it was pretty interesting, even if it's just bogus. I have no idea! https://startingstrength.com/training/elbow-tendonitis-how-it-occurs-and-what-to-do-about-it https://startingstrength.com/training/elbow-tendonitis-how-i... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pin_firing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pin_firing (an article on his website) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1frSvu8KyE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1frSvu8KyE (he talks about it in this podcast)
- vrc 4y ago
  In my experience, I’ve used low weight high rep reverse EZ bar curls to treat/improve elbow tendinitis. I’d never try to work high effort through the pain, but using the affected area and getting a pump made a big difference in how quickly I healed.
- bigDinosaur 4y ago
  It could easily be true, but that's definitely something I'd only try as a last resort until there's some good experimental evidence (which will probably only happen if enough people self-experiment for there to be an obvious benefit).
- pazimzadeh 4y ago
  Sometimes I have aphthous ulcers that absolutely nothing will treat and the only thing that seems to reliably work is if I press on it so hard that it bleeds (with a Q tip - very painful). After that, the ulcer seems to get better within 1-2 days however the other ones remain. Now that I think about it I wonder if it still works if the area is numbed first.
photochemsyn 4y ago
Interesting stuff. I suffered from acute lower back pain and fairly severe tendonitis for a few years and taking NSAIDs (ibuprofen, etc.) certainly didn't help much other than to relieve symptoms when they got particularly bad. That practice just led to one round of re-injury after another. The long-term solution was to change some basic behaviors (never wear a backback while bicycling, use saddlebags instead, and always warmup before exercise), and I also started a very slow recovery program (i.e. about a year-long very steady-and-slow increase in exercise levels). I'm pretty sure a key component was the use of supplements for connective tissue development (glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM, vitamin C) and bone development (calcium-hydroxyapatite and magnesium sources). However, thinking back, I also quit the NSAIDs (which were unnecessary as I always backed off the exercise whenever I felt the slightest twinge during the recovery period). Nowadays, I just do continual light resistance training for back strength (basically frequent hiking with a well-balanced backpack), some relatively light gym workouts, and I've felt zero back pain for several years, and the tendonitis has also vanished, and I almost never take any NSAIDs (which I used to eat rather like candy). I still take that supplement mix (and I've tried going off it for a few months and had a notable increase in sore joints etc.) but now I wonder if quitting the ibuprofen was equally important.
- revolvingocelot 4y ago
  >glucosamine, chondroitin, [...] magnesium sources I'll second this anecdata for back pain/tendonitis. NSAIDs become unnecessary, or even as the parent suggests, harmful. My broccoli and fruit intake obviated calcium and vitamin C supplements respectively, and I never heard about the necessity of MSM.
  - bawolff 4y ago
    People say this as if eating a healthy diet isn't the cornerstone of MSM.
    - Traubenfuchs 4y ago
      MSM is Methylsulfonylmethane, right? How can something be the cornerstone of it, are you thinking about another meaning for MSM?
skizm 4y ago
They mention NSAIDs, but not ice. I’m curious how constantly applying ice affects healing. I work out a lot and have a few minor nagging areas of pain (knee and shoulder). I apply ice after most workouts. I wonder if I am hindering the overall healing process.
- snigacookie 4y ago
  I apply heat to the muscles and ice to the base of the neck. Hope that helps.
- vrc 4y ago
  If you’re trying to make “gainz” then don’t ice according to this study [0]. If you’re trying to avoid muscle soreness and swelling however I don’t know. Anecdotally icing areas that I have previous or chronic issues with prevents flare-ups. [0] https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1113/JP278996 https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1113/JP278996
- whiddershins 4y ago
  Certainly traditional Chinese medicine prohibits this. And there was at least one modern study with acute sports injuries that implied ice could be in fact making things worse. Ice to numb things, sure. ICE to reduce inflammation by inhibiting blood flow … ?
drivebyops 4y ago
As an aside, anyone have any insight on people with NSAID allergies? I pretty much have not taken aspirin/NSAIDs since the first allergic response as a child. What can people like myself do for anti-inflammation?
- h4waii 4y ago
  Topical CBD might be an option to do some research on.
  - vorpalhex 4y ago
    Let me save you some digging: it's bunk. If you go to the supermarket and get yourself some cbd topical solution for like sore muscles.. you are just getting generic sore muscle lotion that basically treats inflammation, and it has had cbd waved near it for an upcharge. The only potential like thing here are high cbd transdermal patches but the dose is high and the efficacy is still pretty low.
    - hallway_monitor 4y ago
      NSAIDs are taken orally; oral CBD does seem to have an effect on inflammation.
      - Broken_Hippo 4y ago
        NSAIDs are taken orally Not always. They sell ibuprofen in a tube so you can rub it on muscles. If you are in the US, you probably don't see it on your pharmacy shelves, though. The pharmacy I worked at didn't sell it (and it was a large chain), but all of the pharmacies I've seen in Norway have it.
        vorpalhex 4y ago
        I have seen it in US pharmacies, both labeled as NSAID and non-labeled but containing NSAID precursors. The labeled one had a measuring/dosage card attached which was really weird to me.
snigacookie 4y ago
Understandably inflammation is a clear signal that your body is out of balance. Get your blood checked, test all nutrient levels, and probably get some steroids to calm down the inflammation if it is in overdrive and blocking your attempt to correct the issue.
- vrc 4y ago
  Whoa! Probably not wise to casually suggest people pop corticosteroids if their “inflammation is in overdrive” based on some blood tests. Seems like something a doctor needs to evaluate given the serious side effects of their use.
- the_doctah 4y ago
  >Understandably inflammation is a clear signal that your body is out of balance. What? Inflammation happens for a number of reasons. Some nebulous "balance" that your body is "out of" isn't it.
- Broken_Hippo 4y ago
  Understandably inflammation is a clear signal that your body is out of balance. No, it really isn't. If you cut your finger, you are going to have inflammation around the wound. This is completely normal and desirable: It helps the wound close and heal. Same if you get injured: swelling near a broken elbow means you are less likely to move the joint for a few days, at least (pain will keep me from moving it afterwards). These are all temporary maladies and no amount of getting your nutrients checked is going to fix these. And steroids certainly won't help you in those situations. Steroids can make healing slower, depending on what is wrong. Not to mention that they aren't safe for everyone and can have serious side effects. slow healing, bad sleep, brittle bones, and so on. I'm not saying steroids are never the answer. I have MS and have had high dose steroids to help with nerve inflammation (hopefully to minimize damage). High dose meaning... it was administered through an IV and I hallucinated every few hours for 3 days. And I've had steriods for an allergic reaction that simply wasn't calming down. But the situations aren't in your favor: Steroids aren't a cure-all for inflammation, which isn't always bad.
dataangel 4y ago
Not too long ago got downvoted here for pointing out there was a growing body of research against anti-inflammatory use in many situations.
dataangel 4y ago
What I want to know is how are the standards for research and medicine so bad that antiinflammatories are handed out like candy, provided the headline is true? Nobody ever did long term studies on one of the most popular kind of OTC medications, especially for their effect on pain, given that that's the main thing you'd look at for something marketed as a pain reliever?!
smm11 4y ago
Funny, my chronic pain is reduced when I block inflammation.
- dredmorbius 4y ago
  In the short term or long term? If your pain is in fact chronic, then ... you might wish to revisit. Your specific instance and circumstances will, of course, vary from others. And I'm well aware that those suffering from chronic conditions face all manner of denial and unhelpful contributions from others, both healthcare professionals and not. (I'm of the latter class.) Having been through some serious injuries myself, I can attest that 1) short-term relief, over days and weeks, from quite powerful anti-inflammetories was immense, and 2) that the long-term issue would likely best be treated by other means, particular to my circumstances. TL;DR: shor-term and long-term benefits may in fact be in opposite directions. As any alcoholic or junkie is aware.
  - smm11 4y ago
    Hit by a car when I was 8. I'm nearly 60. I've experienced it all.
    - dredmorbius 4y ago
      I'm truly sorry. If you care to discuss: anything in particular that did/does seem to help or hurt especially?
      - smm11 4y ago
        High protein, low-carb/sugar diet. Activity, strength stuff, not to excess, but consistent. (Weightlifting, swimming, running, cycling, etc.) Low weight. My injuries were to knees and pelvis, so the more I weigh the more problems I have. Decades of NSAIDs, and a year of Oxy turned me to cannabis, which works in small amounts while CBD alone does not. CBD loosens up my muscles too much, and my adductors are a major issue when not influenced already. Outright weed keeps things on the level, which makes no sense when I run a mountain marathon the next morning.
charles_f 4y ago
Actual title is "Acute inflammatory response via neutrophil activation protects against the development of chronic pain", please do not editorialize titles
- dredmorbius 4y ago
  Please notify HN mods directly at hn@ycombinator.com I've done so in this case. HN's long-standing policy in the case of clickbaity or vague article titles is to replace them with one from the text itself if possible. See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9695092 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9695092 The last sentence of the abstract here seems to offer a couple of options. In my own submissions, I'll note where I'm making such substitutions and why. Usually for length: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adredmorbius%20title%20edited%20length&sort=byPopularity&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
- dang 4y ago
  Thanks—we belatedly changed it above (shortened to fit HN's 80 char limit).
DoreenMichele 4y ago
Transient neutrophil-driven up-regulation of inflammatory responses was protective against the transition to chronic pain. Could someone kindly translate this to layman's terms? Neutrophils are white blood cells. The rest is gibberish to me. Edit: To be clear, I am trying to understand this piece of the statement: Transient neutrophil-driven up-regulation of inflammatory responses... Edit: I'm wondering if that means "Temporary white blood cell driven increase in inflammation was protective..."
tempestn 4y ago
I remember seeing some evidence recently that the application of ice to reduce inflammation likewise lengthens the healing process. Seems similar. Inflammation can cause acute pain, so reducing it provides some immediate relief, but also interferes with its beneficial effects.
Traubenfuchs 4y ago
What constitutes "anti-inflammatory treatment"? We know lots of supplements and food that seems to be universally considered healthy to have anti-inflammatory effects: olive oil, boswellia, pretty much all fruit and especially vegetables (and an infinite amount of other substance(s) (classes)). Is too much or even just a bit of those bad in some cases? Or are only the "heavy hitters" NSAID and corticosteroids bad? If so, why? Are they so much stronger? A little anecdote in regards to chronic pain: A combination of high dosage Loratadine (3x10mg) and Ambroxol (2x75mg) a day helped the chronic nerve pain in my face a lot, when NSAID didn't.
- goda90 4y ago
  It could be those foods help the immune system regulate itself to not cause chronic systemic inflammation but maybe don't stop it from doing localized inflammation for injury and infection?
amai 4y ago
I solved my chronic lower back pain by using a standing desk. Using NSAIDs just hides the fact that we are sitting to much.

157 points by jqgatsby 4y ago

amai 4y ago

“In rodents, anti-inflammatory treatments prolonged pain duration, and the effect was abolished by neutrophil administration.” What does that mean for the therapy of humans? How can we administer neutrophils in humans to fight chronic pain?

amai 4y ago
“Depletion of neutrophils delayed resolution of pain in mice, whereas peripheral injection of neutrophils themselves, or S100A8/A9 proteins normally released by neutrophils, prevented the development of long-lasting pain induced by an anti-inflammatory drug.”

mateo1 4y ago

Rather unsurprisingly there's a reason inflammation as a process exists.

msla 4y ago

And not blocking inflammation can kill you. https://www.cancertherapyadvisor.com/home/news/conference-coverage/american-society-of-hematology-ash/ash-2021/ash-2021-car-t-in-depth/anakinra-prevent-severe-crs-icans-car-t-cell-therapy/ https://www.cancertherapyadvisor.com/home/news/conference-co... CAR T-cell therapy is for refractory or relapsed lymphomas. One of its side-effects is cytokine release syndrome (CRS), an inflammatory response which, in its most severe grade, is fatal. Anakinra, used for rheumatoid arthritis among other things, greatly reduces the severity of CRS in poor yahoos like me receiving CAR T-cell therapy, turning what could be a rocketship ride to Hell into what will more likely be a rather uncomfortable United flight to Newark.

a1445c8b 4y ago
We probably need to qualify your claim with this phrase taken from the same quote: > in its most severe grade I will hazard a guess that most inflammation is not severe but our tolerance for it has diminished due, in part, to the prevalence of anti-inflammatory drugs.
teeray 4y ago
I think like many things in life, the answer lies somewhere in between. You want inflammation—-just enough, not too much.
bawolff 4y ago
In other words, it is like literally every other bodily process in existence.
colechristensen 4y ago
If a treatment can't seriously harm you when overdone, it probably isn't doing anything at all (because it's probably doing nothing).

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Terry_Roll 4y ago

Blocking the Neutrophil trash-can part of the immune system doesnt seem a good idea. Stay off your sugar and do a bit of intermittent fasting. Herbert Shelton might have been onto something you know. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrophil#Structure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrophil#Structure "In 1973, Sanchez et al. found that the capacity of neutrophils to engulf bacteria is reduced when simple sugars like glucose, fructose as well as sucrose, honey and orange juice were ingested, while the ingestion of starches had no effect. Fasting, on the other hand, strengthened the neutrophils' phagocytic capacity to engulf bacteria. It was concluded that the function, and not the number, of phagocytes in engulfing bacteria was altered by the ingestion of sugars."

NoPicklez 4y ago

I could be barking up the wrong tree, but there is a podcast I listen to called Trainerroad (for all you cyclists) and they did a special over a year ago on recovery. They spoke very in-depth and brought experts in studying recovery (in the context of sport). One of the interesting topics was that during recovery from exercise or an acute injury, your body's natural response to repair is through inflammation (not surprisingly). But that reducing or trying to block inflammation inhibits your body's ability to repair and build itself, leading to much slower recovery. All in all, it seems there is a balance between reducing inflammation to prevent it from either killing you or causing pain vs reducing it to the point that it prevents your body's natural build and repair processes.

tastysandwich 4y ago

Mark Rippetoe swears by a remedy he developed for elbow tendonitis, based on pin firing. Pin firing is an old treatment for certain injuries to a horse's leg, whereby inflammation is intentionally exacerbated using a hot poker. The idea being that this increased inflammatory response causes the original injury to heal. His remedy for elbow tendonitis basically involves a few sessions of doing chin ups until your elbow pain is unbearable. And then keep going. Many low-rep sets over and over. The idea is that this will increase inflammation, causing your body to heal the original injury along with the inflammation. He claims this healed his own elbow tendonitis and has worked for countless others. I follow Rip's strength training program. However I can't say I'd ever give this a try and I'm not sure there's any scientific evidence that it works. Just thought it was pretty interesting, even if it's just bogus. I have no idea! https://startingstrength.com/training/elbow-tendonitis-how-it-occurs-and-what-to-do-about-it https://startingstrength.com/training/elbow-tendonitis-how-i... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pin_firing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pin_firing (an article on his website) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1frSvu8KyE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1frSvu8KyE (he talks about it in this podcast)

vrc 4y ago
In my experience, I’ve used low weight high rep reverse EZ bar curls to treat/improve elbow tendinitis. I’d never try to work high effort through the pain, but using the affected area and getting a pump made a big difference in how quickly I healed.
bigDinosaur 4y ago
It could easily be true, but that's definitely something I'd only try as a last resort until there's some good experimental evidence (which will probably only happen if enough people self-experiment for there to be an obvious benefit).
pazimzadeh 4y ago
Sometimes I have aphthous ulcers that absolutely nothing will treat and the only thing that seems to reliably work is if I press on it so hard that it bleeds (with a Q tip - very painful). After that, the ulcer seems to get better within 1-2 days however the other ones remain. Now that I think about it I wonder if it still works if the area is numbed first.

photochemsyn 4y ago

Interesting stuff. I suffered from acute lower back pain and fairly severe tendonitis for a few years and taking NSAIDs (ibuprofen, etc.) certainly didn't help much other than to relieve symptoms when they got particularly bad. That practice just led to one round of re-injury after another. The long-term solution was to change some basic behaviors (never wear a backback while bicycling, use saddlebags instead, and always warmup before exercise), and I also started a very slow recovery program (i.e. about a year-long very steady-and-slow increase in exercise levels). I'm pretty sure a key component was the use of supplements for connective tissue development (glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM, vitamin C) and bone development (calcium-hydroxyapatite and magnesium sources). However, thinking back, I also quit the NSAIDs (which were unnecessary as I always backed off the exercise whenever I felt the slightest twinge during the recovery period). Nowadays, I just do continual light resistance training for back strength (basically frequent hiking with a well-balanced backpack), some relatively light gym workouts, and I've felt zero back pain for several years, and the tendonitis has also vanished, and I almost never take any NSAIDs (which I used to eat rather like candy). I still take that supplement mix (and I've tried going off it for a few months and had a notable increase in sore joints etc.) but now I wonder if quitting the ibuprofen was equally important.

revolvingocelot 4y ago
>glucosamine, chondroitin, [...] magnesium sources I'll second this anecdata for back pain/tendonitis. NSAIDs become unnecessary, or even as the parent suggests, harmful. My broccoli and fruit intake obviated calcium and vitamin C supplements respectively, and I never heard about the necessity of MSM.
- bawolff 4y ago
  People say this as if eating a healthy diet isn't the cornerstone of MSM.
  - Traubenfuchs 4y ago
    MSM is Methylsulfonylmethane, right? How can something be the cornerstone of it, are you thinking about another meaning for MSM?

skizm 4y ago

They mention NSAIDs, but not ice. I’m curious how constantly applying ice affects healing. I work out a lot and have a few minor nagging areas of pain (knee and shoulder). I apply ice after most workouts. I wonder if I am hindering the overall healing process.

snigacookie 4y ago
I apply heat to the muscles and ice to the base of the neck. Hope that helps.
vrc 4y ago
If you’re trying to make “gainz” then don’t ice according to this study [0]. If you’re trying to avoid muscle soreness and swelling however I don’t know. Anecdotally icing areas that I have previous or chronic issues with prevents flare-ups. [0] https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1113/JP278996 https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1113/JP278996
whiddershins 4y ago
Certainly traditional Chinese medicine prohibits this. And there was at least one modern study with acute sports injuries that implied ice could be in fact making things worse. Ice to numb things, sure. ICE to reduce inflammation by inhibiting blood flow … ?

drivebyops 4y ago

As an aside, anyone have any insight on people with NSAID allergies? I pretty much have not taken aspirin/NSAIDs since the first allergic response as a child. What can people like myself do for anti-inflammation?

h4waii 4y ago
Topical CBD might be an option to do some research on.
- vorpalhex 4y ago
  Let me save you some digging: it's bunk. If you go to the supermarket and get yourself some cbd topical solution for like sore muscles.. you are just getting generic sore muscle lotion that basically treats inflammation, and it has had cbd waved near it for an upcharge. The only potential like thing here are high cbd transdermal patches but the dose is high and the efficacy is still pretty low.
  - hallway_monitor 4y ago
    NSAIDs are taken orally; oral CBD does seem to have an effect on inflammation.
    - Broken_Hippo 4y ago
      NSAIDs are taken orally Not always. They sell ibuprofen in a tube so you can rub it on muscles. If you are in the US, you probably don't see it on your pharmacy shelves, though. The pharmacy I worked at didn't sell it (and it was a large chain), but all of the pharmacies I've seen in Norway have it.
      - vorpalhex 4y ago
        I have seen it in US pharmacies, both labeled as NSAID and non-labeled but containing NSAID precursors. The labeled one had a measuring/dosage card attached which was really weird to me.

snigacookie 4y ago

Understandably inflammation is a clear signal that your body is out of balance. Get your blood checked, test all nutrient levels, and probably get some steroids to calm down the inflammation if it is in overdrive and blocking your attempt to correct the issue.

vrc 4y ago
Whoa! Probably not wise to casually suggest people pop corticosteroids if their “inflammation is in overdrive” based on some blood tests. Seems like something a doctor needs to evaluate given the serious side effects of their use.
the_doctah 4y ago
>Understandably inflammation is a clear signal that your body is out of balance. What? Inflammation happens for a number of reasons. Some nebulous "balance" that your body is "out of" isn't it.
Broken_Hippo 4y ago
Understandably inflammation is a clear signal that your body is out of balance. No, it really isn't. If you cut your finger, you are going to have inflammation around the wound. This is completely normal and desirable: It helps the wound close and heal. Same if you get injured: swelling near a broken elbow means you are less likely to move the joint for a few days, at least (pain will keep me from moving it afterwards). These are all temporary maladies and no amount of getting your nutrients checked is going to fix these. And steroids certainly won't help you in those situations. Steroids can make healing slower, depending on what is wrong. Not to mention that they aren't safe for everyone and can have serious side effects. slow healing, bad sleep, brittle bones, and so on. I'm not saying steroids are never the answer. I have MS and have had high dose steroids to help with nerve inflammation (hopefully to minimize damage). High dose meaning... it was administered through an IV and I hallucinated every few hours for 3 days. And I've had steriods for an allergic reaction that simply wasn't calming down. But the situations aren't in your favor: Steroids aren't a cure-all for inflammation, which isn't always bad.

dataangel 4y ago

Not too long ago got downvoted here for pointing out there was a growing body of research against anti-inflammatory use in many situations.

dataangel 4y ago

What I want to know is how are the standards for research and medicine so bad that antiinflammatories are handed out like candy, provided the headline is true? Nobody ever did long term studies on one of the most popular kind of OTC medications, especially for their effect on pain, given that that's the main thing you'd look at for something marketed as a pain reliever?!

smm11 4y ago

Funny, my chronic pain is reduced when I block inflammation.

dredmorbius 4y ago
In the short term or long term? If your pain is in fact chronic, then ... you might wish to revisit. Your specific instance and circumstances will, of course, vary from others. And I'm well aware that those suffering from chronic conditions face all manner of denial and unhelpful contributions from others, both healthcare professionals and not. (I'm of the latter class.) Having been through some serious injuries myself, I can attest that 1) short-term relief, over days and weeks, from quite powerful anti-inflammetories was immense, and 2) that the long-term issue would likely best be treated by other means, particular to my circumstances. TL;DR: shor-term and long-term benefits may in fact be in opposite directions. As any alcoholic or junkie is aware.
- smm11 4y ago
  Hit by a car when I was 8. I'm nearly 60. I've experienced it all.
  - dredmorbius 4y ago
    I'm truly sorry. If you care to discuss: anything in particular that did/does seem to help or hurt especially?
    - smm11 4y ago
      High protein, low-carb/sugar diet. Activity, strength stuff, not to excess, but consistent. (Weightlifting, swimming, running, cycling, etc.) Low weight. My injuries were to knees and pelvis, so the more I weigh the more problems I have. Decades of NSAIDs, and a year of Oxy turned me to cannabis, which works in small amounts while CBD alone does not. CBD loosens up my muscles too much, and my adductors are a major issue when not influenced already. Outright weed keeps things on the level, which makes no sense when I run a mountain marathon the next morning.

charles_f 4y ago

Actual title is "Acute inflammatory response via neutrophil activation protects against the development of chronic pain", please do not editorialize titles

dredmorbius 4y ago
Please notify HN mods directly at hn@ycombinator.com I've done so in this case. HN's long-standing policy in the case of clickbaity or vague article titles is to replace them with one from the text itself if possible. See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9695092 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9695092 The last sentence of the abstract here seems to offer a couple of options. In my own submissions, I'll note where I'm making such substitutions and why. Usually for length: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adredmorbius%20title%20edited%20length&sort=byPopularity&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
dang 4y ago
Thanks—we belatedly changed it above (shortened to fit HN's 80 char limit).

DoreenMichele 4y ago

Transient neutrophil-driven up-regulation of inflammatory responses was protective against the transition to chronic pain. Could someone kindly translate this to layman's terms? Neutrophils are white blood cells. The rest is gibberish to me. Edit: To be clear, I am trying to understand this piece of the statement: Transient neutrophil-driven up-regulation of inflammatory responses... Edit: I'm wondering if that means "Temporary white blood cell driven increase in inflammation was protective..."

tempestn 4y ago

I remember seeing some evidence recently that the application of ice to reduce inflammation likewise lengthens the healing process. Seems similar. Inflammation can cause acute pain, so reducing it provides some immediate relief, but also interferes with its beneficial effects.

Traubenfuchs 4y ago

What constitutes "anti-inflammatory treatment"? We know lots of supplements and food that seems to be universally considered healthy to have anti-inflammatory effects: olive oil, boswellia, pretty much all fruit and especially vegetables (and an infinite amount of other substance(s) (classes)). Is too much or even just a bit of those bad in some cases? Or are only the "heavy hitters" NSAID and corticosteroids bad? If so, why? Are they so much stronger? A little anecdote in regards to chronic pain: A combination of high dosage Loratadine (3x10mg) and Ambroxol (2x75mg) a day helped the chronic nerve pain in my face a lot, when NSAID didn't.

goda90 4y ago
It could be those foods help the immune system regulate itself to not cause chronic systemic inflammation but maybe don't stop it from doing localized inflammation for injury and infection?

amai 4y ago

I solved my chronic lower back pain by using a standing desk. Using NSAIDs just hides the fact that we are sitting to much.